Galatic Strike Force Kickstarter discussion

Linking back from Boardgame geek site to get feedback on both sites.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/969914/gsf-ks-campaign-discussion

Out of curiousity how many people have pledged for this project?

Is there a reason you have not pledged?

If you did pledge, are you getting the miniatures?


Questions of the KS that confuses me:

Also does anyone know what the current box will contain?

As the 100k stretch goal seems to be: "$100k: If we break this impressive level, we will have the money to upgrade the box for Galactic Strike Force, releasing the game in a larger box with plenty of space for organizing all of the components, including the promo cards, as well as the sector, Strike Force, and Opposition flagship panels. The upgraded box will even have space for the optional miniatures!"


Does this mean unless we get the enlarge box the current box would not fit future expansions?

Would this be a similar situation where the enhanced editition of SOTM was much better than the first and it was actually worth waiting for a second edition printing?


Cause this seems to be KS stretch goal that concerns me most and I believe would influence whether I should get the miniatures or not. Would hate to get the extra minis only to not have thme fit in the box. (I mean giant Opposition ships are nice, but whether the box will hold expansion seems to be something I have payed more attention too after getting the expansions for SoTM.)

I backed at the +mini level.  I'm expecting the non-upgraded GSF box to be more like the original SotM box than the EE SotM box; it'll fit all the components that come with the base game (so, no minis, no promo cards), but not necessarily in a manner that allows you to actually organize the cards and panels, just store them.  And it certainly won't have room for future expansions.

I think it'll be sub-optimal to not be able to store the minis in the same box as the cards, but that's not a deal-breaker for me.  I want the minis anyways.  I want the double-sized Opposition minis too, but it looks like that's a desire that will have to go unfulfilled. :(

Yep, pledged + minis. I imagine we'll see some additional bump as more marketting goes out and it gets closer to the end, hopefully enough for the large minis - as I really want those!

To >G

Questions for >G:

Without the 100k stretch goal what does the current box hold? (Will it hold future expansions?)

Are miniatures gonna be sold outside of KS? 

Are promo cards gonna be printed with the GSF printing or separate printing, since I was told promo cards arent KS exclusive and are offered as a promo pack in the future.

Mind if you can comment on the higher stretch goals for the promo cards compared to ST KS. As I notice they seem quite high for a relatively new IP. (Just curious not saying not to.)

Is there anything that is only obtainable in KS?

Might be of your interest of the difference of opinion between BGG and here.

I am saying both sides have their merit since there has been more >G presence here. If possible if you could also comment on the other side.

This is my worry, that I probably would just hold off on getting the Miniatures if the box does not contain the space. Cause not reaching that stretch goal seems to me that this would all get fixed in the second printing and it seems it is one of the reason why people are holding off on backing this project.

Note I am in no way saying the KS is done badly or GSF is not done properly. But I was just curious as to what other people thought and the difference of opinion especially on why people are not backing is something that >G staff might be interested in looking at.

I was disappointed by the way the GSF Kickstarter has gone too, though it looks like >G is making a concerted effort to keep things simpler this time time around, even if it means leaving money on the table.  In the end, of course, it's up to them how they want to conduct business. As long as GSF turns out to be a super fun game, all will be forgiven. :)

You're not leaving money on the table if you're keeping your margins up by not including a ton of conditional extras. There are no economies of scale on deck design. In many ways each marginal card is MORE difficult to produce, not less. It's thoroughly plausible to me that they could end up pockting more money in the long term by exercising moderation with thier stretch goals.

This sort of restrained strategy makes a ton of sense to me for an established-but-still-small company like >G. Just read some of the horror stories about Kickstarters that force themselves into worse games becuase they overpromised on stretch goals or incidental rewards.

Also, KS gets their cut so if nothing else they're getting more money per unit on direct sales than KS sales anyway. ;D

I'll admit, the thing I was most excited about for this Kickstarter was the ability to playtest, which wasn't offered through the KS (but I jumped on as soon it was available in the store).  GSf looks fun and I look forward to playtesting, but I'm not overly excited about it.  I'm also fine with moderate KS strech goals if it makes sense for GTG.

I am a bit concerned to with what will happen with the box, however.  I'm not really interested in a 1st edition issue where the box does not fit any expansion content or the minis.  That alone might be enough to hold off backing for me.

I trust >G to have done the math enough to know how much a stretch goal costs and to not offer it unless it will pay for itself at least, preferably generating a profit.

We got the F6 alt cards in the Shattered Timelines Kickstarter for going $20k over the base goal, and by $40k over the base goal, we'd gotten that plus oversized villain cards and a whole new 25-card villain deck (Miss Information).  To compare, going $40k over the base goal with GSF gets you... two Station cards.  If you can make a profit from putting out 6 alt hero cards, oversized villain cards, and a full villain deck for $40k, then you should be able to do more than 2 Station cards.

But really, the purpose of stretch goals is to generate excitement more than anything else.  As long as you're not losing money on them (again, I trust >G to do the math), then you're missing out on excitement by not offering compelling goals that get people wanting to be a part of your project.  Less exciting goals = less excitement.

I don't think people are wrong to be underwhelmed.  The only question in my mind is whether the underwhelmation is intentional on >G's part or whether the Kickstarter was just botched.  I'm inclined to think it was maybe a little of both, but more intentional than otherwise.  They were obviously beat up by the success of the Shattered Timelines Kickstarter and wanted to keep things a little simpler this time.  That's a perfectly acceptable business goal to prioritize this time around, even if it doesn't do much to get backer's juices flowing for your project.

I agree about the box. I want to back the game at the minis level, but hate the idea that I will need to shell out an extra $40-$50 to get a nice box a year from now. Especially when i know that I am going to be getting the next SOTM expansion this fall. If I knew we would be getting the upgraded box I would back it today at the minis level. 

Just my 2 cents. 

Stretch goals cost you money by definition. It's just a matter of whether they generate enough extra backers/buyers/buzz to make it worth it. It may be that they're a bit on the conservative side of that tradeoff with the GSF campaign, but to be fair Shattered Timelines was an epic campaign by any measure. It combined two products, and had a metric crapton of bonus stuff. Not every campaign can be that boss, and it's kind of unfair to directly compare them IMO.

I mean, I want more cool stuff for GSF just as much as anybody. I just can't find it in myself to hold it against >G or be disappointed in the campaign. I just think that it's kinda normal for an unproven game to have less excitement than a highly anticipated expansion for a successful game. I mean, the game looks fun to and it's definitely funded. So either way, I'm going to get to play it. I've seen projects I'm really excited for fail to fund or just narrowly fund at last minute. We're halfway through and we're certain we're getting a game. That's a win. Maybe it's not a 19-minute nexus rollover like the ST campaign, but it's a far cry from the Channel A campaign, which got $10,569 of its $10,000 goal and looked for all the world like it wasn't going to make it the day before it closed.

I think it was easier to add bonus alt heroes and villains to SotM because the mechanics and story arc were all worked out by the time the expansions were kickstarted, so it was easier to put out more material that they knew would work with the story and the game system. I think it might be hard to do so for a game that is still being fleshed out to some degree. 

That being said though, I do agree that if the intent was to keep it smaller and simpler then the stretch goals triggers should have been scaled down to reflect that. Even ST which was their most successful Kickstarter (and due in no small part to their sweet stretch goals) only made it $185 (and a lot of that due to the appeal of the Vengeance addition at the $150 mark). So to put the only really exciting stretch goal at $150 from the start seems a bit strange. 

The box issue is another concern as well. In their release of the Enhanced Edition the larger box was presented as a solution to the storage problem caused by having a box that was too small to begin with. To now release a new game with what could potentially be the same problem, while offering a solution to that problem as a stretch goal or a future upgrade does raise some questions.

Now, I don't know the details of why this decisions or what the logic is for them, and I am willing to give GTG the benefit of the doubt and trust there are perfectly good reasons for everything (they haven't let me down yet with their games), but if I were looking at this as a new backer, I would probably still be holding back on this or may have passed on it altogether by now. 

A Q&A!

Without the 100k stretch goal what does the current box hold? (Will it hold future expansions?)

It is *much* better than the original SotM box - no matter what, the GSF box will be at least as good as the Enhanced Edition box, which means that it will hold future expansions. The $100k goal will allow us to increase the size to be notably larger than the Enhanced Edition box, and include a larger area to better hold panels and miniatures, etc.

Are miniatures gonna be sold outside of KS? 

Yes.

Are promo cards gonna be printed with the GSF printing or separate printing, since I was told promo cards arent KS exclusive and are offered as a promo pack in the future.

They are going to be printed with the GSF printing the same way that we print mini-expansions for SotM.

Mind if you can comment on the higher stretch goals for the promo cards compared to ST KS. As I notice they seem quite high for a relatively new IP. (Just curious not saying not to.)

With the ST Kickstarter, we were a bit too ambitions with the stretch rewards. We wound up losing quite a bit of money on that Kickstarter even though it funded really well. With this Kickstarter, we are trying to experiment with our various options in terms of stretch goal offerings, with the goal of at least not *losing* money on Kickstarter campaigns. This lets us gain more and more ranks in our "Manage Kickstarter" skill - just think how good we'll be at it in [secret times] when we launch a Kickstarter for the [redacted] [also secret] game!

Is there anything that is only obtainable in KS?

 The extra promo card pack is free via Kickstarter, but will cost money later. The art prints are only obtainable in KS (or at conventions). So far, those are the only KS exclusives.

Paul, great QA.

I agree with your decision to be cautious. It seems to me that a lot of companies are doing more harm then good to their bottom line with crazy stretch goals. 

Thanks for the answers on the box, it really alleviated my major concern.  If I might offer a suggestion, clarifying that on the KS page would be good for those folks skepitical that there might be a GSF Enhanced Edition coming out in 18 months

We wound up losing quite a bit of money on that Kickstarter even though it funded really well.

That changes the calculus quite a bit, obviously.  Perhaps this info should have been part of a Kickstarter update at some point, because I think people's (including my) assumptions are that the ST Kickstarter was a huge success from all perspectives and they can't understand why the GSF Kickstarter is so vanilla compared to the fantastic double-decker sundae they were just served.  We all know that Kickstarters are about managing expectations as much as anything else.

(edit: someone made this point before I hit "save" on my post :) Also, that info about the box needs to make it into a Kickstarter update.  I think most people have the same expectation I had, that the GSF base box will be like the SotM original box.  If we can remove that misunderstanding, I think you'll see more people able to get over their fear of buyer's remorse.

I find myself in an odd position here, in that I've been defending the way GtG have been handling the Kickstarter on the other thread, but I haven't personally backed it, because I'm not sure I'll be able to afford it, whereas I can be reasonably sure of getting it for Christmas, and I feel like I can live without the promo Station cards, whereas I probably wouldn't feel that way about another Opposition or another Strike Force race.

Paul thanks for the update.

Sorry to hear you lost money on the KS, but I believe you gained a lot more popularity for SOTM for that. As so far I have persuaded 2 other persons to get all expansions and game from just 2-3 plays.  Looking forward to Vengeance.

Sorry for the bombardment of question, I was just curious as seeing the slower pace and the box is sort of the determining factor for a lot since people have heard of SOTM first box experience.

If you would announce info on the box I am glad people would be less likely to wait on sideline.

Also I believe this was mentioned in ST kickstarter. What is the retail price of GSF?

Cause I just remembered since you are using the same delivery system as ST KS campaign?

Is everyone also getting charged $10 for delivery (for in states) cause someone brought up a good point that GSF is more expensive than SOTM. Unless this is the planned course.

Other questions regarding: Are miniatures planned for future expansions of GSF?

Not sure if its possible, but is it possible for you to take your "funds" you received for playtesting you got as a side bonus and boost the stretch goal? I mean if it loses you money it would be bad, but I feel if you did this you could give KS people some hope for a bigger box so they are more likely to add the mini's :)

But I think heres whats interesting of them adding a station card, as this means it could potentially be a card you can add to every game.

Though it seems the rule with promo station cards seem to be you only choose 90 cards. So this gives you some varierty where your 90 cards are not always guaranteed. Also seeing as a new Strike Force is 8 cards, versus a promo card in SOTM. I can see this as why that might be why they went for station cards instead.

Though I got to agree the lowered amount of incentive for getting in on this KS.

Where as a new opposition might be more costly to produce, but that might be the 200k stretch goal. I bet it must be a Thorian Opposition

Or I am not sure how this would work, but lets say if X backers got the miniature level then >G would upgrade the opposition ships to 60mm. (Assumming having more people order the minis mean lowering production cost might be a different way to approach than to have it at a certain $ amount.)

Cause I am sure having giant Opposition ship would look awesome on the board.

From KS:

With that in mind, we have decided to make Playtesting Access available through our web store for the duration of the Kickstarter campaign. It is still $40, the same price it has always been, but this way you'll get access much more quickly after you buy in. We realize that the down side of this method is that those of you who opt to buy playtesting access won't contribute to the Kickstarter totals. However, we feel that the up sides of getting more playtesters working on the game right away outweighs that negative, and, if we happen to get a truly massive number of new Playtesters, we'll factor that into the Kickstarter and adjust the stretch reward levels accordingly!

Now that I know the box will fit all the figures and the game I backed at the +minis level. The KS page really makes it seem like everything won't fit in the box unless the stretch goal is hit. You should probably make it clear that everything will. Not everyone will come to these boards to hunt down that info. Having a delux box would be great, but having a usable storage box is a must. I couldn't imagine that you would let the box be a problem after the issues you had previously, but that was what I was getting form the verbiage on the KS page.

looking forward to a great game. 

I cannot help but think, and I have seen comments indicating such, that had they spent a little more time thinking through the initial presentation of the project, the initial kickstarter project page, this project could have more momentum.  When everyone's first response is excitement followed by brakes slamming and "huh?" When you get to the fantasy themed races, that cannot be good for first impressions.  Follow that with a complete lack of any significant explanation of game play on that first day and you have a lot of people that looked and moved on, probably not to return. I am backing the game plus minis because I have had great times with Sentinels and am sure it will be fun, but for anyone not familiR with >G that was not an easy sell with that setup. 

I think they have realized what a mistake those things were and have made corrections, but I think this thing would have been so different if the had taken just a bit more time and reflected on their presentation.  I think the game itself and the stretch goals look solid enough and I get the need for a more toned down project if they lost money on the ST project, I just think a lot of the momentum problems could have been curbed with better salesmanship from the outset. 

More Q&A!

What is the retail price of GSF?

$39.95

Cause I just remembered since you are using the same delivery system as ST KS campaign?

We are using the same shipper (FedEx). However, we anticipate being able to ship everything out much more quickly without as much of a time lag this time.

Is everyone also getting charged $10 for delivery (for in states) cause someone brought up a good point that GSF is more expensive than SOTM. Unless this is the planned course.

We are charging $10 for shipping for GSF, exactly like we have done for every single Kickstarter we have run to date. If you look at the IR/EE Kickstarter from last spring, you will see that the cost for getting the GSF core game via this Kickstarter campaign is exactly the same as the cost for getting Enhanced Edition from that campaign. 

Are miniatures planned for future expansions of GSF?

Yes. Every GSF expansion will also be released with optional miniatures. 

Not sure if its possible, but is it possible for you to take your "funds" you received for playtesting you got as a side bonus and boost the stretch goal?

Yes, we are definitely doing this!

I just think a lot of the momentum problems could have been curbed with better salesmanship from the outset. 

You are right, there are definitely things that could have been constructed better with regards to this Kickstarter! Every time we run them, we learn new things. With Rook City, we learned what sorts of levels people care about and what sorts they don't. On IR/EE, we learned that offering stretch rewards as "add money to your pledge" add-ons (what we did with Unity) is a huge hassle for us and also irritates people. On ST, we learned that there is definitely such a thing as too much complication when it comes to stretch rewards. And for GSF, we are learning the difference in expectations from fans between a Kickstarter for an expansions vs a Kickstarter for a brand new game. We did not run a Kickstarter for the original SotM, so this is our very first time trying it out with a new game.

However, we are thrilled to have funded, and intend to keep releasing more information about the game as the Kickstart progresses (including some stuff about the box, probably early next week once we have 100% solid information from the printer, etc). Right now, our primary goal is making GSF an awesome game!

WOO INEVITABLE GSF-SOTM CROSSOVER! :D

And with the new update today and revised stretch goals, you have done it!  This game will be great.  Thanks for the quick and earnest response and for constructively taking all of our criticism. We love you games and want them to succeed as much as you do. 

I love the Kickstarter update today too, both the info about the box and the SotM crossover extra panel.  Maybe a little extra info about how the non-stretch box will still be a worthy solution for people who are still on the fence, even if we don't get the expanded box, might be good?  We want people telling their friends, "It'll be great if we hit the goal, but it'll still be good if we don't".

Ooh, revised stretch goals. They look like a good balance between realistic and swag. Definitely stoked about the more attainable superminis. Props for being flexible, and hopefully this will bring in some of the people hanging out on the fence.

I posted on BGG a copy/paste of the info about how the non-upgraded boxes will still be good, and mentioned the altered Kickstarter stretch levels.  Hope that helps to generate some traffic.

Paul,

The new stretch rewards are great. This looks much better than how you had it previously (although I understand why with the printer uncertainty). The promo sector (bonus points for sotm xover) is a wonderf surprises that adds an excitement factor the station cards just could not. 

Also, does the legacy line extend all these millennia in the future? You don't have to answer, but if you could blink once for yes and twice for no, that would be great

Oh gods, if he does then he must be near omnipotent. He'll have hundreds of powers now, after all...

Paul thanks for actively answering our questions. I have also copied them to Board Game Geek in order to help bring exposure.

I will say knowing about the box and seeing the re-arranged goal everything looks really promising.

Has anyone imagined if we would ever see Tempest in space or Thorian Flagship make an appearance. Really seems like a possibility given the new sector release.

Might I suggest listing it at least in the shipping or FAQ.

Cause I am sure a lot of US people are looking at the game and thinking the MSRP is gonna be $50 since it wasn't explicitly stated.

In Infernal Relic and Shattered Timelines the extra shipping cost was explained.

Hopefully this helps my initial confusion.

Nice rework!! I think this will take care of a lot of stuff. Very excited about this. 

I think the very peripheral cross-over is an excellent way to tie it in to the multiverse while still keeping its identity as a separate project. A Thorathian flagship and/or Maerinyan strike force would be pretty awesome, but I think that would  be better set for future expansions when the GSF world is already established. 

I've been watching the Kickstarter campaign since it started. I am a huge fan of SOTM but I do not like any deck-building games so I am not interested in GSF. However, I am also a fan of >G Games and would love to see them succeed.

Some changes I would like for them to consider:

1. Publicize like crazy about the minis. Mini games are selling like crazy, even when people hardly know what the gameplay will be like. Investigate the success of "Cool Minis or Not" and do more of their ideas.

2. On the other hand, how about the gameplay? Besides a kind of tedious series of videos of explanation, there has been no more sharing about the gameplay.

3. Change the front page. The static picture of GSF should be changed to a video and videos should be embedded into the front page, not just links with text below them.

The game is funded so I guess everyone can be happy enough, but I think they are leaving a lot of money on the table when the time might be right now to ride this tide. I hope these ideas can spark people to get on board with their game.

The only explanation I can think of for why there hasn't been a video of actual gameplay is that they have no friends who will play with them.  Otherwise, you'd think that would already be up there. ;)

Ha. I am tempted to become a playtester just so I can make a gameplay video they can use... but surely there are existing playtesters out there who have the skills and drive necessary (and in greater quantities than I) to make it happen. 

Is the new sector a KS exclusive?

I imagine, like all other promos, it will be available for purchase later.

The Vognild Prime sector will be distributed exactly like the alternate hero character cards for SotM; that is, it will be sent out to Kickstarter backers, and available for Sentinels Points at conventions, but will not be sold otherwise.

Good thing I have more than plenty of Sentinel Points.

Hooray for [redacted], coming soon to an [undisclosed location] near you!

We've been bad (I guess).  No Kickstarter update today for us! ;)

You spoke too soon!

Sorry about the delay, folks. Kickstarter wasn't letting me post an update, so it was a frustrating morning. 

Unless I am crazy but I recently heard someone else say this. So is there a reason why you aren't advertising that you can add vengeance to GSF?

I am sure people would find shipping split between 2 games would make a lot more sense.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/971635/news-for-those-backers-that-missed-vengeance-and-i

(Its myself quoting another backer, I should have posted here first but I thought I already did that before I did that.)

Once we get confirmation we should start a new thread announcing this in the title to get a few more eyes on it. It otherwise may go largely unnoticed by those not looking at this thread. I have a feeling that being able to add on Vengeance to your GSF would be very appealing to many, especially international backers. 

Just to be clear. Based on the reply that the BGG user got from >G, it sounds like adding Vengeance is only an option for international backers (to save on ridiculous shipping rates) and that domestic backers will not be able to add Vengeance to their pledge but, rather, can preorder it from the website in a few weeks? 

I could see it being a hassle if a large amount of people decided to add Vengeance to their pledges, so by limiting it to just international backers, it limits the amount of hassle. On the other hand, if domestic backers were offered this opportunity, I think it could help create a push towards those stretch goals.

I think it would help even with just international backers. 

Especially since I am sure people international backers can't pre-order from >G either since its gonna be quite of bit of shipping.

Hopefully piggy backing on GSF would help.

For those that still are paying attention to GSF they have now added Vengeance to their add-on.

What is everyone's feel on this?

Would this be a little too late for this update?? Those big ship models I guess we will not see. Though the big box looks promising.

Here's to the big box. Cheers!

I'm... uncertain. I really respected them for trying to keep the two products seperated and letting GSF garner it's own attention without relying on big brother. Also looking at my recently depleted bank account (stupid flat tires and bad brakes) I don't think I can afford to add Vengeance at this time. Besides, I'm not paying more than I pledged for GSF's shipping, so why not just pre-order Vengeance when it becomes available like I had already planned? I understand the benefit to international backers, and I fully suport that move, but I don't see a good reason to donate more to the kickstarter than I already had.

Besides, anybody who wants Vengeance bad enough is getting it either way at some point, so what's the benefit here?

So, I think I'm just going to preorder Vengance from >Games. I'll still get that promo and oversized villian cards, and I can wait a while before spending the money. I also don't live outside of the US, so there's that...

I think the main benefit is for international backers (as i saw a thread on boardgamegeek where multiple international backers were basically asking if they could combine it to save on shipping).  so i see the highest benefit for them. that said, no reason non-internations couldn't also if they wanted ...

What I would like to see in future updates are:

The Opposition, obviously. I'm pretty surprised they haven't been previewed already.

Some cards from each Strike Force deck.

Some more Sectors.

The promo Station cards.

I know if we glanced at the box update we can barely see the Promo sector.

I do agree some station card or 1-2 starter card would help people get excited the game more.

There are 6 more weekdays left before the end of the Kickstarter.  That's enough for one Opposition per day (5 total), plus one Sector, if we keep getting one content update per day.  Not much time left.

Well, I caved and backed the game, with minis included, which I didn't think I'd do.

Spacedragons was what it took to push you over, eh?

Curious what tipped you over the edge?

Curious here too as the opinion between this forum and the BGG forum had very different opinion.

Most people on BGG havent backed or backed out due to the more conservative and lack of exclusive stretch goals to justify the risk.

I realised I wanted the minis, and that getting them later on through distribution channels would quite possibly be an enormous hassle.

If people want exclusives then we need a future space legacy who has evolved to the point of being a living planet!  Shazam!  >G just made $100k!

Looking at Kicktraq it seems we might be just shy of making the 75k stretch goal.

Wonder if >G is commited to the box regardless.

I'm not so sure.  There have been a lot of people on BGG who have said they're likely to pull out their support at the last minute if it looks like the upgraded box isn't going to happen, which will make things even worse.

I've said it before and ill say it again: I would have easily backed at 120 if it got me all the old SotM promos I missed or heaven forbid a new a one.

As is there is no leveraging of their pedigree.  Because I like SotM ill buy it on the shelf, but why invest more than cost for a game I might not like?  Now if I invest and get something for the game I DO like that's way more compelling.

It feels like they got so wrapped up in not being a one trick pony that they forgot that people like their original pony 

They're out of a lot of those promos, and printing new ones makes no sense to me. Spending money on SotM stuff that a lot of backers will already have instead of new GSF content?

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  You are making a lot of assumptions.

Rook city had 402 backers.  Infernal Relics had 1197. shattered timelines had 2147.

Ignoring for a moment that 2147 is not a massive number, it is still 5x the number of RC backers and 2x the IR backers.  So already there there are folks missing promos.

Now consider the fact that shattered timelines finished kickstarting in novemember.  If you got the game for Christmas, you have no promos.  If you got the game at a convention, maybe you have a few.  Either way you certainly don't have all.  You (much like >g) aren't thinking about late adopters.

tangentialy, those promos should be sold separately at convention but able to be earned by playing demos.  At PAX if I wanted a F6 promo I had to take a spot at a play table meant o attract potential buyers.  

Moral of the story, not everyone has been with this game since jump but dig it…forgetting that fact is a quick way  to leave money on the table (as they found out)

EDIT: with the exception of minis, all of the new GSF content all comes in the way of stretch goals.  They have nothing really worthwhile to pull in the larger pledges.  

A logo tshirt?  It's not like a slick graphical design t.  Art prints?  How about have a high bid reward for original art?

1) they want GSF to stand on its own not with SotM Crutches. Thats why there isnt any SOTM gear/promos/ect in the kickstarter. I completely agree with this. How are they going to know if there is any real interest in the game if there is SoTM Stuff that everyone is just pledging for that? 

2) This isnt about money to Christopher . Sure he likes that he can make a living at this, but its never been about money - you just have to listen to him on any numerous podcasts to hear. He does this because he likes to make games. That he has been able to get to a point to make money and support  his family? Awesome! But he'd be doing it anyways even if he had to work a 9-5 job as well. (it just be much slower for us :P)

3) Im thinking that the SoTM Community has gotten spoiled on >G Kickstarters, expecting bigger, better, and greater stretch rewards, and that they will all be met. For myself, I just want a copy of the game. Stretch rewards are great, but I'm not going to back or not back on that - I'm going to back because a) i know >G willput out a good product (even if I wasn't a playtester, a good game is a good game, and I will always look into that) and b) its a game that looks like it will be fun - even more so because im a playtester sure, but again - I trust >g. I don't need a fancy box or bigger mini's. I just need a game I can take to Game night with my buddies and play and have a couple hours of good time every couple weeks with it.

Do I expect it to be on the level of Sentinels for my group? (That is, 1-2 games every night we get together, pretty much)  No. But do i expect it to be worth the 40 bucks + shipping to enjoy? I sure do. I sure do. 

So I don't understand these people who are pulling out because they wont get an upgradedbox or bigger mini's or who arent pledging because /stretch/ rewards arent cool enough. Pledge for the product, not the free swag.  

sides the game is funded. I don't forsee 15K dollars dissapearing from itin the last 70 hours. 

There is nothing I can say that Lynkfox has not already said. That. So much that.

+1 to Lynkfox. My sentiments exactly.

lynkfox +1

Just wanted to add a couple more points. A a consumer, how would you feel if you have to buy a $50 game just to get one promo card for a game you love. It might be a great business plan, but I wouldn't think to highly of the company after that.

Most people not backing say they aren't backing because: 1) It will be cheaper at retail. 2) They are waiting for REVIEWS. As a consumer can you blame anybody for either of these. Short of GtG sending someone a preview copy (which I don't think will happen), there is no way to counter these with a KS campaign. KS is not a preorder system, it is a way to support people you believe in to help start their project. GtG has enough people to help get this started, everyone else is waiting for the actual game.

Has there been ANY study that shows KS INCREASES overall sales? I haven't seen one. What I have seen is that there are a lot of people waiting for the game to hit the stores (the marketing aspect worked great). GtG already said that they don't make much money thorugh the KS. If they would sell X games anyways, wouldn't it be better for the company (and us) to do it AFTER the KS campaign.

The only thing lost through not having the big number on KS is OUR free stuff. Since the entire point was to help out GtG, I don't really see why that matters.

There absolutely is a monetary loss.  I would have easily paid 150 for GSF, minis, and a complete set of sentinels promos since I was late to the dance.

 By doing so I would be giving >g 70 more dollars than I will now at retail (or possibly even more a now ill buy the game then decide if I want the minis)

That's why the whole "I want GSF to stand on its own merits" is silly at best, and hubris at worse.

Ultimately the marketplace is where the game will succeed and fail on its own merits.  Kick starter is a fundraising campaign.  And part of fund raising is about generating money, ideally by getting people to spend MORE money than they normally would because they love a product or company.

Because not a lot of people know the product, they are leveraging the company name.  And to not leverage the property that put them on the map is bad business.  Both for fans and for them.

you asked if I would spend 50 bucks to get a game and a promo for another game? Yes. Yes I would, because not only am I supporting a creator that I like, but it's te only way for me to get the damn card in the first place.

Also, to Lynx's point that >g fans are spoiled I agree.  I think there is a MASSIVE sense of entitlement that all fans have all the promos or can attend conventions to get them.  It comes up all the time, especially when people casually reference promos as solutions to problems as if everyone has them

Edit: keep in mind this KS isn't even rewarding early adopters.  It's not like I can offer to pay more for new content...there is no mechanical incentive beyond 80 bucks, all the meat is predicated on stretch goals

Except >Games have publically stated that they will be releasing an "unlimited" version of the promos down the line, when Sentinels is done and all the promos are released. And there's nothing stopping you from doing exactly what I have done and printing out the versions that >Games have either uploaded themsleves or allowed fans to upload and slapping them in a sleeve/glueing them to cardboard.

And wanting to know if a game can stand on its own is not hubris or silly, it's the way to test the market when you are making a decision on how many to produce in the first print run/whether to invest time and effort into making expansions for said game. If you confuse the issue by adding in stuff from another game, how do you know what the "genuine" demand is?

I am not backing the kickstarter, several playtesters have said, "it's good, but it's not going to hit the table as much as Sentinels does" and that carries weight with me. I have not been looking at the kickstarter updates because although I like Christopher's enthuaisum about the game in all the podcasts I have heard him in, the theme of the game (and what little I know of the gameplay) just does not grab me in the same way Sentinels does; I will wait for more detailed reviews/finalised rules before deciding on whether to purchase it or not.

The reasons we are running the Kickstarter are 1) Market research, 2) spreading awareness, and 3) raising the capital to print the game. On all of these counts, it has been quite successful, and we are in a *much* better position now with GSF than we were when we initially released SotM. 

1) For GSF, we won't have to work out on the fly how to market the game to people at a convention.

2) For GSF, there are now thousands of people who have heard of the game and are aware of the basic idea, as opposed to the ~50 or so who had heard of SotM when we first brought it to Gen Con.

3) For GSF, we have already raised the capital we need to print it, without having to sell any amount of Greater Than Games to an investor.

@Matchstickman

Your reasons for not backing the Kickstarter make total sense to me! The fact that you are aware of the game is awesome; it is now up to us to ensure that GSF is the best, most fun game it can be before we release it. If we do, it will be a success, and you might even buy it at some point down the road :) 

I just wanted to let it be known that the most recent build of GSF is really cementing down what is great about this game.  I was sketchy at first during a few of the earlier builds, but I've solidly jumped on the GSF train at this point.  If your concern is that it won't be at a Sentinels level of amazing, I understand.  BUT, keep in mind that we're playing a game that is very new as opposed to Sentinels, which was released after Adam and Christopher had been playing and fine-tuning it for fun.  These are very different games, and they've both had a very different journey in their creation.  I just wanted to be the guy to say that I think it's worth fifty bucks, and I could very easily just use the playtest documents to make my own proxied game without kicking in if I wanted to.  I'm kicking the core game and the minis, and I think GSF will see slightly less use than Sentinels.  It's another co-op game that you can play with your friends.  That alone got my interest.  I've definitely not been let down in the playtesting process.

BUT, it sounds like your reasoning is quite reasonable.

I do have faith the game is definitely interesting, despite the few times I have got to play with others. 

The only part I am sad is because of the lack of funding on this Kickstarter there is a possibility there is the bigger box is not made. Which we have yet to see a prototype on if we do not make it, as it may not hold the miniatures that you get. So I am still debating if I should get the minis or just the game.

Also the fact that the Opposition ships will be the same size as Strike force ship definitely seems like a missed oppurtunity. I mean how cool to have a giant Spider/Dragon fighting against these puny ships.

I imagine if the game proves successful there might be a possibility of Opposition ship upgrades in the future (kind of how the oversized villain cards happened later for SotM). So for now I am happy the game got funded and I look forward to playing it. If it proves to be a hit I am sure all these things will materialize. If it's not a hit, well then at least they didn't spend all that effort producing oversized minis

@matchstick

I heard about the "unlimited" editions of the promos before...all the more reason to print them and monetize  them

the question isn't "is the game fun or not" I think it will be, that's why I'll buy it sight unseen at release.  The question is "is this game worth spending MORE than I normally would". And on that level I think the kick starter has been a failure 

if you look at the backers, over half are donating at the "game+mini" level, but very few are commiting to higher spends, and that's bad fundraising particularly when they had the tools to do better.

of course the project has more eyes on it, SotM has a loyal and evangelizing fan base, an everyone is curious about "the next big thing", that should not only have driven page views, it should have driven more sales (an more money)

I'm happy the game got funded.  But I think you're fooling yourself if you think this was executed in a way that maximizes exposure as well as profit

I re point out my #2 comment. they aren’t in this to get rich. If they find, produce the game, and make enough profit to start another game or start the expansions for this one, that’s all they want. at least that’s my mpression

Also not to mention their is also some people waiting for the "second edition" as what happened to first edition of Sentinels. Was also a reason several people didn't back.

Personally. I wished they were able to make the promo cards of GSF part of a $5 more program where you add $5 to get a single copy of all the promos they planned to print on GSF blank space. Then if stretch goals are reached they become 3 copies.

Or

Had the big ships as a # of Mini's backer versus a $ amount backer. Meaning if say 1000 backers were getting minis they were able to print the big minis as people are interested in them. As not having big opposition ships was also a concern.

A bit late now. Now I just wonder for thsoe people on BGG that mentioned they were backing out, whether they will affect us reaching the bigger box stretch.

Meaning if say 1000 backers were getting minis they were able to print the big minis as people are interested in them.

That one was never going to happen.  It costs some amount to make the larger minis.  If you say 1000 backers but those 1000 backers don't bring in enough to cover your costs, then you've screwed yourself.  It has to be based on $$ brought in.

Right, but if they had say 1000 backers you would be getting 30k. Assuming they are gettin the minis and the game that is 80k which means you only need 20k from international shipping and people getting mats/tshirts/vengeance. (Again 1000 was an arbritary number for easier math.)

Also with a higher order of number of mini's its most likely cheaper to produce those mini's in the future. Cause say we reached 100k but only a small portion of people are ordering big mini's it still seems arbitrary as strech goal by itself.

Again a mere suggestion I don't run board game shops, so not sure how all the math works out.

Stretch goal met at 70k. Extra station cards. On to the upgraded box and the promo sector. 

Is anyone hearing specific questions that we should get answered to convince folks to kick in here in the final hours? Really wanna get those stretch goals!!! (And very sad we're not likely to get the upgraded minis. )

I never said it was about getting rich, but ultimatley, It's a business Lynkfox.  At the end of the day it's always about making money (hense Paul's earlier concerns about losing money on the ST kickstarter).

More importantly Kickstarter is about FUNDRAISING and the goal of fundraising is to make as much money as possible.  They wouldn't have set stretch goals for 100k (and said they have ideas for things beyond 100k)  if they weren't hoping to make that much money, and they could have had a better shot at hitting those goals had they executed better planning

This may be a little off topic, but why can Snowdonia kickstarter offer $60 max international shipping for any quantity of games pledged? That is a great consideration for us international backers.

Apprarently the Promo card announced in today's update is a Penny Arcade crossover.

Wonder if there would be a time to get a Tycho/Gabe Ship :)

Well, we've hit the $75K mark.

Is anyone else curious about the other promo card, or did I miss it in an update somewhere? 

Definitely curious, don't think that card was announced anywhere. If only GTG gave it more than 24 hours to spread the word about the card.

Maybe it'll be PA-related, too. I wouldn't say no to a cardboard tube tech. Lol

Personally if it was some kind of Thorian or  Maerynian tech(like that card of Tempest's choose a damage type and reduce damage one) would also be cool

I mean we got a sector why not a station card too.

Or perhaps a far-future extrapolation of Omnitron?

Hold on a second… What if the Quasi-Metallic Technodwarves ARE a far-future extrapolation of Omnitron? His descendants, if you will. And the humans? Clearly, beneficiaries of Stinson-tech. Sulph-Orcs could be a gene-bound race that got out of control. I'm wanting to say that the War-Spectres could be an incarnation of AA's order-loving power. The Neo-Elves are giving me trouble, though.

Thorathians, or a variation thereupon?

I have not pledge ... I want to but I'm not going to.

Reason: Postage and postage alone

I'm really shocked we broke 75K, if I'm right that means we got over 10K in two days… that's… impressive

Kicktraq has the actual data, if anyone’s interested.

Most of the last $10K was in the final 48 hours, though. Kicktraq seems to use calendar dates rather than Kickstarter days for doing Pledges per day.