Omnitron-X Overpowered?

We talk a lot about 'fixing' underpowered heroes, but what about 'nerfing' overpowered ones?

I've played several of games with O-X and found him to be not very fun to have as a teammate. Sure it's great fun to play 18 cards on your turn and do 42 damage by discarding one card and heal 3 targets and destroy all environment cards and so on and so forth...then reset. But it is so boring watching Omnitron do this....every...turn.

Sure, he loses all his fancy gadgets if he takes five damage in a turn but as long as he has the right plating he never will.

Two "fixes" I propose are:

5 damage in a round (just like Omnitron-I) destroys his components (gotta be wary of environment).

or

(H) damage in a turn destroys his components.

Granted, I haven't seen him against someone with lots of equipment/ongoing destruction nor have a seen him against his nemesis, but has anyone had a  bad game with O-X?

Only had him play 2 times so far. So can't judge if he is over-powered.

I like the automation part of his cards as it is very fitting. I actually at first thought it was per round.

Not to mention you can even do everything then skip your power and play to draw 2 cards that turn.

How are you doing 48 damage with 1 discard? Is that plating power with a ton of damage buff?

H on a Hero does sound quite interesting, cause I do agree once you have proper plating it does make it easier to prevent 5. In 3 player game the villan rarely is able to hit hard enough to by pass the plating.

Side note: Would be interesting to see how powerful Omnitron gets if his components is damage in a turn instead of a round.

I like Omni-10, it feels satisfying when you get all his stuff out and can do a zillion things and then have your Play phase…but it is frustrating when you wither take 5+ damage in a turn or someone destroys all your stuff directly (eg Devastating Aurora), and poof that's it, back to square one with very little you can do all of a sudden except start on getting it all out again. I find Omni-10 fun but have to beware the fragility.

Mind you, in a fight against the Chairman last weekend I had some fun - got the appropriate plating out in the first turn (with the search card that lets you find a plating or component and put it into play) and soon afterwards the Reactive Plating Subroutine. There was some kind of damage buff in play (might've been an Obsidian Field, I think we were in Insula Primalis anyway) which meant that the Operative was attempting to deal three damage every time we killed something in their deck. Mostly this was aimed at Omni-10, which meant he got to soak two of it and be hit by one, therefore his RPS went off and he got to hit something himself. Usually this was a Thug, which destroyed it and caused the Operative to attack him again, which meant he got to hit something again. Eventually, though, the bad guys had enough damage buffs out that Omni-10 unfortunately took six damage in a turn, smashing all his components. Still, at least the plating and the RPS stayed in, what with them not being components :).

He has a very tough time against the Ennead, at least on Advanced.

I think the idea of H or H+1 is interesting.  As someone said if you are only playing 3 heros it is extemely unlikely that he will take 5 in one turn.  The real danger are the equipment destroying cards.  Any cards that destroy only a set number (such as 2 equipments) don't hurt him too bad, its the destroy all cards that get him. Then again he can still get everything out again faster than any other hero that requires build up like AZ or Bunker.

I mean which is really interesting as currently no Heroes truly adjust base on number of heroes.

I think it still fits lore wise as the more people fighting beside the more empathetic he is the more items he is holding on to.

Though in a 6 player game would H = 6 be too high.

Sometimes things break in H=6. It's not recommended that you play with H=6, so it doesn't need to be baanced (though of course if Omnitronks, or any hero, had an H mechanic then you could always house-rule it down when H=6).

Played him once against Cosmic Omnitron. Only thing that saved him was that Scholar played an alchemic redirection on the same turn as a Technological Singularity. It would've been about the same damage as an Electropulse.

Yeah that thing is nasty.  Its the same against Bunker, AZ and any hero with lots of equipment.  Expat maybe if she has all her guns out.

Omnitron-X is a little worse off, since the Nemesis bonus makes it 3 damage per card destroyed to him. I had Omnitron-X end up taking 30 points of damage from it... It was kid of sad considering Omnitron-X was racking up so much damage to Omnitron that the game would of been over in the next couple of rounds, still won in the end it just took a lot longer. Wraith tends to take a lot of damage aswell, since she is another hero that gets a lot of equipment out fast.

Personally I considered him "OP" as soon as I shuffled through his deck, kind of calling him the new Tempest in that he can do defense, offense, control and utility fairly well. He has weaknesses, but they are kind of the same weaknesses that every other character has. That does not mean I dislike him, he is a super fun character, but man he can turn into a real beast.

As for H on a hero card, if anyone ever got one it would be Omnitron, the "reformed" villain. I also had a thought once that it would be good for a Solo character a la Wolvie or Punisher... with an ongoing or two that makes H count as 1 for him while he goes do his own thing and ignores bonuses and penalties to he heroes.

I think the key difference here is that unlike tempest, he can do all of those things passively with his start of turn triggers. And he Voltrons (almost literally) to the point of being a monster that protects himself, heals/helps his team and smashes through armies and armored targets a like. Plus he has an actual rocket punch!

While he is probably one of the most vulnerable to mass equip destruction, with cards like Reset, Technological Advancement, Electro Deployment Unit and his innate power, he can recover with a speed unnmatched by any other hero. 

I am not saying he is OP. I dont think any hero is OP. Some are better then others, sure. I think a for a hero to be OP they would be nearly unstoppable to every villain.  He is a really good and versatile hero, but I dont think he needs to be nerfed. He is only incredible if he can get and keep his set up running. Some villains are no threat to him, and others look at him and laugh.   

We haven't played much Advanced Ennead, but Elemental Exochassis is incredible against them.

I think your comment of not playing him against much Equipment destruction can make him seem much more beefy than he is.  If Wraith only played against villains without Equipment destruction, she can have some pretty incredible turns.  Or Unity with a villain that typically targets the highest HP hero target rather than the lowest or all.  With O-X, EVERY villain has Equipment destruction.  Have you played him much against Voss or Dawn, who have a diverse damage type pool?  What about La Capitan?  Who exactly do you feel that O-X is OP against?

To add just played a game where Baron Blade's "Deal X +3 damage for each equipment card" basically wipes you regardless of damage reduction.

I see that basically if you do not have the right plating it is quite easy for him to stay a float.

Would be interesting to see statistacally for what value of H does he get KO'd more. Also like to say OmnitronX might not be the best Hero to explain the game to a first player. As you have to explain how order goes which could be quite confusing.

They do enough damage types that it doesn't matter. Isis does Infernal, Osiris makes you do Psychic, Geb and Tefnut do Melee. Also, whoever is on the lowest hit points tends to take Infernal damage, and because Omnitron X starts low, he typically stays low.

I don't think that was my quote. Personally, I've used Omnitron X to run ahead of Miss Information, playing more cards than she could blow up, and I avoided being killed by Technological Singularity by getting worried that it hadn't showed up yet and playing Self Sacrifice or Singularity to blow my Components up myself the turn before Cosmic Omnitron did in fact play Technological Singularity.

I had two interesting games with O-X tonight. 

Game 1 was O-X, Ra, Visionary, and Bunker vs. the Ennead in the Block. Nuit was in the flop and the Ennead was getting healed left and right so after probably 6 rounds we had 5 Ennead at full HP and Nuit down to about half. Round 7 Ra plays Imbued Fire and Visionary plays Twist the Ether on O-X. On O-X's turn he discards a plating card with 4 damage types to Defensive Blast which does 12 fire damage to each Ennead member (we killed Nuit first). In the next turn I recommended that my cousin play a 3-type plating card to pick up the 4-type in play and do it again, but he was actually able to use two Plasma Cannons to get any targets above 9 HP to less than 9, then discarded the 3-type to hit every non-hero target for 9 which even killed Char for good measure. He wiped out 6 Ennead members in two turns (5 of them in the same turn) for a total victory. 

Two games later Baron Blade's flipped side base power destroyed all of O-X's components with a +1 damage boost. 

I really enjoy playing and playing with O-X. In one game tonight he seemed OP, but in another not so much. I think he's pretty well balanced, but like all heroes he can seem a little overpowered in some situations. I never hear about Haka being OP but I think Savage Mana against Apostate could certainly make someone think he was if it was the first time they saw him. 

Defensive blast doesn't do damage based on the discarded plating, it's based on the plating currently in play (if I recall correctly).

I don't have the cards in front of me, but a quick Google search says you're right. Good catch. He had Elemental Exochassis in play which I think reduces fire, cold, lightning, and energy so it would've been 12 damage both times instead of 12 and 9.  So we could've won even more easily. 

My apologies.  That part of my post was referring to the OP.  Totally didn't specify!

And let me rephrase:  My group has played a number of games against The Ennead where O-X contributed immensely while being protected by Elemental Exochassis.  We may have gotten multiple lucky draws, but the Fire/Lightning/Cold damage being reduced made it so O-X didn't lose more than five life a turn.

Finally got to play O-X today. I too felt that O-X is overpowered. Is there power creep happening already?

Like CR, O-X can be really hurt by damage reduction. He has the plasma cannons that each do 2 irreducible, but I rarely get both of them out when I play him. Other than that all his stuff is multiple instances of 1 or 2 damage.

I don't know, he doesn't feel that much more powerful than say, Legacy, Tempest or the Wraith. Which I also think are above average in power. There have always been really powerful heroes, and that's ok. I would actually say that O-X is the first expansion hero that can join the above three in the super powerful club, so even if he's the most powerful in the club (which I'm not so sure about), I wouldn't call the phenomenon power creep. 

That being said, I do think fragility scaling with H is an interesting idea, because on H=3, there is almost no risk of losing your stuff due to damage.

For the record, I was playing against Iron Legacy. I managed to get Slip Through Time, Focused Plasma Cannon, Gaussian Coil Blaster, 2 Focused Plasma Cannon, Innervation Ray, and Rocket Punch and Defensive Blast. And sorta single handedly took down Iron Legacy. And I never got hit for more than 4 damage in a turn.

Perhaps I got lucky.

How many Heroes were there??

Cause like others have mentioned it seems like when H is higher Omnitron is more likely to get smashed since most cards are based on H.

In a game I played against IL, CR was really the one who took him out. The thing is that IL pretty much only does Projectile and Melee, so Ablative Coating will keep you from taking too much damage for the most part if you can get it out early. I have had component destruction at the hands of LaCapitain since she can do both psychic and projectile which aren't covered by the same plating, and her crew does various kinds of damage also not all covered by the same plating. And against IL, unless you're being buffed, the Plasma cannons and the Rocket Punch are the only things that will do damage when he's flipped. I'm not completely against making it easier for his components to be destroyed, but if it's too easy, then he'll end up being underpowered and frustrating to play.

i had H=4.

The tool I've used with Omnitron-X that seems really powerful is that bio-egineering beam. Both times I've played O-X I've gotten this out early and shut down the environment almost completely. I think I almost give this power preference over the risk of his base power

I don't think power creep is happening because Chrono-Ranger and the Scholar are very much average power with the other heroes.

However, O-X is definitely at least a top-tier hero with Tempest, Legacy and Wraith.

Hehe, I practically soloed Miss Information with Omni-10 the other day. I can't actually remember who the other two heroes in the team were (might've been something like the Scholar and 6-Tachyon but can't remember) or whether both of them survived, but Omni-10 finished up on full health after getting all his components out, and his most useful plating for the situation (the one that blocks Psychic etc), plus both Bio-Engneering Beams and his Reactive Plating Subroutine (which never acted because he always fully soaked anything that hit him, or was hit by stuff not covered by his plating), anda Defensive Blast. He did have both Rocket Punches out at one point and another Defensive Blast but they were destroyed (the Defensive Blast in play at the end was the spare one I had in my hand, which replaced the destroyed one) a few turns before the end. So yeah, a satisfying game 'cause I got to feel so uber, as opposed to the times when all my stuff gets broken and I can't do very much :).

I think one of the reasons he is so good is the damage groupings of his platings. Reducing Melee and Projectile on the same plating turns the Chairman into a cakewalk. That said, I like the 5 damage in one round house rule best. It fits best with the rule for his old forms. I think I'll use that one.

Making it 5 damage every round might end up making his equipment too breakable and quickly put him on the opposite end of the power spectrum, especially dependent on your environment. I'm okay with the 5 per turn because even though it's rare, it can still happen, which makes the situations in which component destruction occurs more dramatic and heart crushing.

Legacy of course. However… given that the Stats updated today… XD

Legacy: 82.01% win Rate

Ox: 81%

Tempest: 76%

Wraith: 74%

(scholar, Nightmist, CR all beat out Tempest as higher 'tier' in terms of win rate (excluding promo heroes with less than 100 entres.)

Team Leader Tach however is quickly becoming the cream of the crop.

Oh and On Topic

Why nerf? Nerfing a class or deck or something is only done to be 'fair' and provide an even (ish) playing field for competition. There is no competition in SotM - there is no socuh thing as OverPowered, given that there are 'weak' villains and 'hard villains' (and everything in between). Making a deck more 'fun' to play (ie, fixer expat, even though i disagree that they need such) is one thing, but making a deck /less/ fun to play? That kinda defeats the purpose of a Coop game!

if you think a hero make the game to easy, play advanced, or shelve that hero, or pair him with heroes that you may think are 'weaker'

Being co-op, I'd think that everyone would like to contribute to the fight at least somewhat equally. The problem with O-X is that he can so utterly dominate a game and his turns can take so long that it's sometimes only fun for his player.

The only other hero that has such long turns is Argent Adept but he must still use a power to set up the chain and most of his powers let other heroes do something. Omnitron-X can do everything by himself as long as his 'teammates' take damage for him.

I agree the main reason Agent Ardent's turn could be so long. Is you are discussing with your teammates at who can do what most effectively. Basically planning out a bit ahead so everyone's turn is shorter since you discussed. Which makes him a really good addition and promotes the coop component effectively.

It was a while before I had Shattered Timelines so for several online games I couldn't actually play O-X. I personally didn't find it boring to play with him. I can understand the sentiment, but I've never found it to be horribly problematic.

I also found him a bit too strong.

We basically beat Voss on advanced without breaking sweat. Ok, it was a great team (legacy, Omni, and Ra), out strategy was:

Legacy leading from front/greater evolution/superhuman resilience

Omni x putting components into play (irreducible damate to Voss) + controlling the environment

Ra killing all of Voss' minions (except the one that did fire damage)

Ra was inmune to damage, Omni x would bounce back that damage, and Legacy would absorb any other incoming stuff. Nothing stayed for long, so at some point we were gaining 3HP per round (2 from Omni, 1 from motivational charge), and losing way less than that. 

The Forced Deployment event that brings all minions back into play were controlled by Omni-X destroying the ongoing, and doing 2 damage to all (boosted to 4 from Ra and Legacy), so they never actually hit the board. It was the easiest match I ever saw. We delayed his demise for a few rounds and got the Flawless Victory Story Challenge. Who can claim that on a Level 4 Advanced boss?

Isn't Voss Level 3?

Yep, Voss is a 3.

I haven't played Omnitronks in too many games, but the ones I have played him in, I can certainly say he's not too overpowered when facing a villain who does a lot of damage to the hero target with the lowest HP. La Capitan and a few of her cards and crew members had Omnitronks taken down within just a few turns.

But if his power persists, I might also adopt the "5 damage a turn" rule.

Had you not had legacy absorbing damage for him you would have lost components. I think people are playing him mostly either against bosses that he can reliably plate against, or with characters that can protect him/control the decks to protect him. Then they conclude he is OP

One game does not overpowered make.  That was a cool report, with plenty of team synergy, but it seems to me that they were all important.  It would have taken longer without the boosts from Legacy and Ra.  Without Ra, you'd have to get somebody else that can kill all the things that Voss makes.  Legacy's boosting and soaking were important as well.  Other heroes could have filled the role Omnitron did in that game, like Unity, or Ra if he switched roles.  You don't have to have irreducible damage to hurt him. 

It seems like that's just a good example of controlling the villain. 

Does he do that all the time, to every villain?  Then we may begin to consider him being overpowered.

The other thing is that his components shattering is the same no matter how many heroes are in play. Since villain damage is based off how many heroes, there's almost no way he'll lose his components with 3 heroes because villain damage isn't high enough.

But yeah, one game does not a hero make (that goes for weaker heroes too). It's just that my initial impression of tronks is that he is as "overpowered" as fixer is "underpowered" (not to start that discussion again).

Depends how many minions you had out and what type of plating has in play.  If his plating helps with at least one attack he can usually take 2 hits without loosing his components.  Not every minion attacks him.  Outside of Forced Deployment shennanigans I can see him never having an issue.  With my group Voss rarely has more than two minion out at a time after the first couple turns unless if we do end up getting a deployment we can't stop.

I agree with all above about one game etc, etc.  Now OX has NEVER lost ANY components (due to taking 5 damage) in ANY game I have ever played involving him (which is all of like 7), BUT I play a lot of 3 hero games and my group plays very defensive.

As someone said earlier, even if the group gets wiped by say a devastating aurora OX is still up faster than any other equipment/ongoing reliant hero OR can make another person set up faster than normal so he is still good.

Also note that he has some pretty decent stuff that isn't subject to the 5 damage rule.

He seems VERY good to me, maybe a little OP, but so do other heros, for example Dark Visionary.

I have to disagree: You could have replaced Ra by any single target damage dealer,…Imagine Haka Salvage Manaing The minions? Laugh on Forced deployment! Wrath Would have even further controlled the minions that appear. Fanatic could have redirected damage/stopped minions from damaging. 

Legacy was a bit more necessary, since advanced Voss reduces damage done, but some other nice tank (Scholar?) could have helped as well. Remember that we kept 1-2 minions so that Voss would not flip, but anything else would not last more than a turn.

In any case, I agree that I normally play with H=3 and in that case it is quite hard to be hit for more than 5 damage if you have the correct plating (chairman + melee/projectile plating + whenever hit you strike back 2 damage= boss goes down in difficulty from 4 to 2

I've played a lot of games with Omnitron-X, always with H=3, and I've had my components broken a number of times.  There are baddies whose damage types don't perfectly match a plating, and some environments do 5+ damage in their turn pretty often.  But I'm not a tactical genius or anything, I might just be worse at the game than some.

Either way, my group loves him--even if he's powerful, he's group friendly.  Nobody gets jealous when I'm spending turns timeshifting them for cool results and healing with innervation ray, and the gamble of what timeshift flips is always entertaining.  We've never found him dominating a game or anything.

Just my two cents.

Yeah, I've had stuff broken on more than one occasion as well, and I basically always play in three-hero games.

Destroying Forced Deployment doesn't help you  at all. Its "all the minions you killed come back into play" effect happens on destruction, not at the start of the villain turn. Further, Voss's alternate victory condition is checked first thing at the start of his turn (since it's on the card which has been on the table before any other card was placed, the setup card), so letting Forced Deployment go off on its own gives you a full round to take out all the minions, while destroying it with Omni, at the absolute best, means you have one less card play to kill off the minions. At its worst, if Omni is the last hero to act in the round, it gives you one power and the environment turn to prevent a loss.

If you continued reading his post he also stated that it was dealing 4 damage to all of them and it killed all minions. How is that not helping at all? It avoided a lot of damage in the end, as none of the minions even had a chance to act. Typically I find it is best to destroy Forced Deployment on a hero turn if I have the means of destroying as many as possible before Voss' turn to avoid additional damage. Of course if I can't find a way to knock it below 10 then I would allow it to destroy itself at that point.

Played a game this weekend where Omni killed Omni-X. He played a Technological Singularity which dealt him 18 damage brining X down to 3 HP, and then on his next turn he played another Technological Singularity which killed him.

Plague Rat is also a bit of a threat for Omnitron-X. Even with Ablative Plating out, most of the damage he deals is irreducible, destroying Infections with Flechettes is going to hurt your team severely and it'll likely break your stuff, and if Plague Rat gets Sewer Fiend active then Defensive Blast becomes really underwhelming.