Every other card game I've played (I've played a lot of card games) has you draw at the beginning of your turn. What was the reasoning behind Sentinels making you draw at the end? I just can't wrap my head around how game breaking it must have been during alpha testing to draw at the start of your turn. I just don't get it.
I think it's about limiting your options for that turn to the cards you have in hand, so you can decide what to do what the other turns are going on, thus minimizing downtime.
If you have a player at the table who hasn't determined what they're doing before their turn begins anyway, it's going to take longer for them to take their turn regardless.
Here's a few things:
There are cards in some decks that put a card from the trash on top of the deck, if you drew at the start you'd get that card a turn earlier. It could lead to some brutal combos with the right cards, right now you need someone else to make you draw it early. Some cards make you end your turn, if you drew at the start you'd have an extra card. Some cards prevent you from drawing, like Bunker's Modes, if you drew at the start before playing the Mode you'd get a card that turn. Then there's Nightmist's deck that probably would be affected greatly if draw was at the start, drawing at the end lets her make use of putting cards on top for her spells.
There are a lot of games that make you draw at the end, you already know of a few of them, Dominion, Legendary, just about any deck building game.
Deckbuilding games don't apply to what sentinels is; in deckbuilding games, you get a new hand every turn, so drawing at the end is an essential part of the design. But here, I don't see that being the case at all. All of the examples you mentioned could be worded differently to have the desired effect they have now and allow you to draw at the beginning of your turn. Almost everyone I've taught this game to reflexively go to draw a card when I tell them it's their turn; it's something that is hard-wired into most people's gaming sensibilities. From my perspective, I think this is only a hurdle toward spreading the word to what a great game this is.
Drawing cards at the end of your turn isn't rare. Here are a few games off the top of my head that also have you draw at the end of your turn:
Dominion
Gloom
Mage Knight
Nightfall
Pandemic
Redshirts
Like I just said, you can't compare deckbuilders to sentinels. They aren't in the same genre or category.
Redshirts is fun, the point for drawing at the end in that one is to fill your hand again. Then there are some games that make you draw as soon as you play a card, like Nuts. One game that it could be seen as both the end and the start is Epic Spell Wars of the Battle Wizards: Duel at Mt. Skullzfyre, cause after the round is done everyone draws back up to a full hand. All these games play from a central deck though.
One more thing I just thought about drawing at the start vs the end. Some villains make you discard cards, sometimes till you have nothing left, if you drew at the start then you'd have a card to play while currently you won't have any. Also what happens to the draw an additional card if you don't play a card or use a power, they'd have 2 draw phases then.
All convention aside, what is the problem with drawing at the end of the turn?
I feel this mechanic works well with Sentinels since it makes you plan your turn with the hand you have, and then you get to replenish at the end to plan your subsequent turn. Maybe the designers just wanted the game to flow that way. I don't see why it should be a problem.
I feel like this has to do with some of the cards. Like Nightmist and Bunker has Recharge Mode and Mistbound(hope I got the right name). So if you draw at the beginning you do not get the benefit right away.
Christopher has actually stated (in person, not on the forums) that he wanted you to know as much as possible going into your turn - and going into the hero turns, in general.
I much prefer drawing at the end. Like everyone else says, we pick out our strategies at the end of the villain turn, then run through our turns without the added variable of drawing at the start.
Non Deck building games:
Legend of the Five Rings - Your Dynasty deck draws at the beginign fo the turn, but your Fate deck draws at the end of the turn.
Smash Up is another game where you draw at the end of your turn.
Anyways! I wonder how it would play to draw at the start of the game rather than the end. Maybe one of these days when I play I will try it out.
Running demos in the booths, I've seen lots of brand new players who reflexively draw at the start of their turn. It's not the majority, but it's plenty -- maybe 1 out of 3 or 4.
I agree, it is an impediment.
I think it's a small enough one, though, that given how much I otherwise LIKE drawing at the end (so as to speed the game up by knowing your choices at the start of your turn), I would not want to change anything.
It gives players time to plan what to do with their newly drawn card. And this means a lot more than it would in a non-cooperative game. The fact that you pretty much know your hand for your next turn, allows you to fully contribute to the planning of your collective strategy and tactics. If instead players had to draw at the start, this would reduce the possibilities for collective planning (by 1 card per player, which is huge) and isolate players more into their own turn (which makes for less involvement and excitement during other turns).
So, making people draw first would make for a less fun, less cooperative game, which seems like a pretty good reason to make the design decision to make them draw last :)
Forbidden Island is the most similar game I can come up...that also draws at the end of the turn. You decide to give up your fire cards, and then you get more fire cards to yield AAAAARGH!
the same could happen here: should I play now this card...or should I wait to get a better combo afterwards? It spices up the game, and as others said it gives you all the info before your turn starts
I think drawing at the end can be unintuitive to some players, but being unintuitive isn't necessarily a dealbreaker. It means you have one more thing to get used to, but if there are gains made elsewhere it's worth it. I agree with the people saying that it help with planning. I can tell you with a degree of certainty what I can do on my turn, and the first time I play a deck I have some time to read and understand new cards before it comes back around to me. Overall, I think it smooths out the flow of play greatly.
Also, when teaching new players the game I find that they come to understand their draw as signifying the end of their turn. Unless you're playing Unity there are few end of turn effects, so it's the last thing that happens in a turn a large majority of the time. I'll still occasionally catch myself doing Unity's golems before drawing, they're so strongly associated. Once they get used to not drawing at the start of their turn, new players will often start to look to the player to their right and watch for when they draw to know they can start their turn without an explicit go-ahead. In any case, it never takes more than a single game to internalize the turn order in my experience.
In very early playtesting for Sentinels of the Multiverse, players drew at the start of their turn. However, as we went through playtesting, we intentionally examined every single element of the gamplay in an attempt to streamline and simplify game play as much as possible. In a game in which Christopher and I were playing with our friend Phil, he suggested drawing at the end of the turn so that each player would have a full round to consider their actions instead of being inevitably surprised by new information immediately before they have to act. We began to playtest the game that way, and discovered that it was far superior. Thus, the turn order of SotM was realized in its final form. Since then, we have been annoyed by various other games that clearly have card draw at the start of the turn only because "that is the way things have always been done".
I definitely agree that following established conventions is an important consideration, and if a rules change will deviate from established convention but not have a definite benefit, then it is probably not desirable. However, in the case of card draw, I have come to believe that, for most card games in which you have a slowly-evolving hand (unlike most deck building games), having card draw at the start of the turn rather than the end is *wrong*. At the least, the burden of proof is on any such game to justify their design choice.
I hope that helps explain it, at least a little!
And you can all expect to see more games with the "draw at the end" mechanic from Greater Than Games in the future. :)
Yes!
I really like the draw at the end mechanic. It keeps the game moving and it also lets you work as a team. I often choose which card I'm going to play in a turn based on what my teammates can do that round. If all of my team members wont know for sure what they can do on their turns, how can I make the best choice during my turn? Drawing at the beginning of your turn adds more interest in a non-cooperative game but in a cooperative game it just gums up the works and takes away one of the fun and unique aspects of the format.
Nice! I actually play this game more than any other card game out there. I drew at the end of my turn on my first game in a Magic tournament about a month or two ago because of Sentinels! Fortunately, I knew my opponent from school, and he let slide the fact that I totally messed up the phases.
I really like the "Draw at the end" mechanic. It makes this game feel distinct, and the fact that it was thought out as a conscious decision (though unsurprising) is very, very cool.
Are you saying that you wouldn't reccomend this game to people solely because of the drawing mechanic, or because it's enough to make people not want to play again? I can't speak for everyone, but I had trouble with end of turn drawing because of Magic. I remembered not to draw at the start of my turn, but I kept forgetting to draw at the end. That being said, I had so much fun playing Sentinels at the shop, as did everyone else, that we immediatly played again, and by the second game it wasn't a problem. I think the design and feel of the game is more than enough to pull people over a little awkwardness.
Would I want other games to change it? No, half of the fun of Magic is that anticipation of your next turn, hoping to draw exactly what you need and reacting based on that. You are inherntly familiar with your deck, so you have multipul stratigies forming in your head based on what your opponet does for the potential draws you have. SotM fun doesn't come from that anticipation, but for finding your place in a heroic team and solving the problem in front of you. Like an evolving puzzle with explosions.
Same here, I used to forget to draw at end of turn because I was used to drawing at the start, never had a problem with accidently drawing at start though, already had my plays in mind. If anything it's forgetting to draw at the end that is probably more common than accidently drawing at the start, seen it happen to others while playing as well. The tokens are also a good reminder for when you don't draw cards, I just place one on top of my deck to remind me, when I only place it in front of me I sometimes forget and draw.
honestly, its been so many years since i played a CCG that you drew at the begining (That being magic) i didnt even double take with Sentinels. Every card game, CCG and otherwise, that we've played has been end of turn draw... Except Nutz. But thats a funny fun times game :p
Why don't you just flip the rulebook and make sure to follow the turn actions posted there?
I always leave the rulebook visible to all players, so we have no problems in the turn scheme...
My group had to do that when we first started playing. Before long, you get a rhythm and stop needing it.
Yeah, that's something we do with the demos, and it usually helps a lot. Magic players sometimes have the reflex to go to the deck. I know I did for a while, but I've definitely gotten over that. 