Sentinels of the Multiverse: VENGEANCE

Now this was completely an unexpected reveal!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinels-of-the-multiverse-shattered-timelines/posts/350410

Now I need to start getting everyone to up their pledges...

If everyone who has pledged so far adds teh $40.00 for Vengence, we'll only be about $9,000.00 away.  Come on yall!

I don't even have words...

I'm just so... shocked.

This needs to happen. NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

Okay, what do we do? How do we do this? Do we all add another $40 right now to our pledges? That will bump up the meter quite a bit.

Thoughts?

Ah, someone already beat me. I'd do it if everyone else is doing it.

Dude, they are not my nemeses

what... the...

...

Ok!

Mind blowing.

Why oh why does this all have to be right before Christmas!!!

Ok. That's going to cost a bit for people who are helping others with international shipping. Worth it! Pledge upped.

Yeah, here I thought they where letting me off lightly by having me just spend $30... increased to $70.

I'll have to discuss this extra money with some others, but I'm positive I'll be able to bump up my pledge today as well.

The question is, how do we convince people who aren't here on the forums to do the same?

This is a little long, so i apologize in advance. But what I know from this will help me decide how much to pledge I have a few questions about this:

1) If we don't reach $150k will there be another Kickstarter for this? I'm worried that we might not make it.

2) "Vengeance will retail for $29.95." Is it going for $39.99 or $29.99? The EXPANDING ROSTER is for 30$, but the MEGA EXPANSION is for the same amount. Can somone help me clear ym confusion up?

3) I'm a little sad that we won't have special Pledge Levels specifically for Vengence.

4) If there are new mechanics involved, will it come with the appropriate tokens?

Thanks!

I’m fairly sure it will be made either way, but there wouldn’t be a Kickstarter for it (as they said this is the last for SotM).

2. “Vengeance will retail for $29.95.” Is it going for $39.99 or $29.99? The EXPANDING ROSTER is for 30$, but the MEGA EXPANSION is for the same amount. Can somone help me clear ym confusion up?

You need to add 40 (30 for the expansion + 10 for shipping it later).

4. If there are new mechanics involved, will it come with the appropriate tokens? Thanks!

I would assume it would, as it is a “premium” expansion.

Personally I added 40 to my pledge as I figure it is a copy of Enhanced Edition (I only have 1st edition) if it doesn’t make it to 150K. For people considering being a playtester, it can be the same (playtesting if under 150K, Vengeance if over 150K).

Pledge bumped. whew Getting pretty high, but well worth it. (I'm now keeping a log of everything I've included in it so I can make sure the list it correctly when the Kickstarter is wrapped!)

For those of us buying multiples of everything (in my case, as gifts), I'm assumning we can add $70 for two copies ($30 + $30 + $10 shipping)?

@Rabit

You are 100% correct.

So....

I see everyone's favorites:

Dude, not my nemesis girl.

Lead from the Front's Red Army Man.

Fright Train

And in the background:

The wizard from Nightmist's deck.

Lt. Vyktor.

The brute who fell for decoy projection.

...Hippocalypse.

My question is, anybody recognize where the Vengeful Five's white haired goggled girl is from?

@ GuiltTrip

Thanks for the info. That does clear things up alot! I just need to pay $15 extra for S/H.

@PCGamerPirate

I think she's the far right character on Promo Wraith's flipside.

I don't recognize the white-haired girl either. But now that I'm somewhere I can see the background of the box art better, whoa, there's a lot of people.

And.

There.

Is.

HIPPOCALYPSE.

(Did you come up with that name, PCGamerPirate? Because I love it.)

Also, given who we have identified, it looks like Communist Multi-Man is Absolute Zero's nemesis (I mean, it's prettyy clear the front five are `the Freedom Five opponents [Baron Blade->Legacy, FrightTrain->Bunker, Not My Nemesis (ironically) -> Tachyon, Goggle Girl (Catwoman analogue?) -> the Wraith which leaves...)

I don't know if that necessarily makes the Commie Multi-Man his nemesis. But you are right, so I'd see him more as just one of AZ's rivals.

HIPPOCALYPSE better have an Ongoing card called Hippocratic Oath!

  >Games never said they wouldn't do a kickstarter for "Vengeance" if we didn't hit $150 K they just said there release schedule is one expansion per year. (unless you are referencing something other than the kickstarter updates that I do not know about.) 

But they also said this is the last Kickstarter of Sentinels of the Multiverse altogether.

Last week they said on Twitter: “In fact, the Kickstarter we’re doing now is the last Sentinels Kickstarter we will do.”

I only know, as someone else mentioned it in a different thread.

I'm a little confused.  Is "Vengeance" just a mega-expansion with a ton of villains?  That'd be awesome, if it's just that.  Or is it something where the players play as villains?  Or is it something else I'm missing?

And if I understand correctly, if we hit $150k in the current Kickstarter, then all Kickstarter backers will get "Vengeance" (when it's available) for freesies, yes?

My undesrtanding is that you can add $40 for the expansion and shipping… kind of like you could add $5 for the unity deck last time around.

Yes, I can see that better on another re-reading of the post.  Feels a little weird to give another $40 for something when I can't really say what it is I'm getting, but imma do it anyway!

We don't know what Vengeance is. I hope more info is forthcoming once we get over $125K as it'll make the hard sell easier.

However, as it's a whole new box (and expanded edition sized one at that) it costs $40 for American backers,(+international shipping to non-Americans).

Well, in fact, Spiff, it is not a "reward" : if the 150k goal is reached, it becomes a double kickstarter a-posteriori : enough money has been raised for the creation of TWO products, but you still need to pay for second one (and its shipping unless you accept waiting a few more months). Just like if it had been two different kickstarter projects, but with the option to have everything shipped together for a lower cost.

More information about Vengeance will be forthcoming if we get closer to the goal. The reason we posted it now is so that people know what exciting things we'll be doing with their money if we reach that point.

Vengenace is not just villains; it is actually playable in its own right without any other expansions or even the core game (though it does of course add a ton more variety to the gameplay if you do have the other expansion / core game)

I added my 40. I would guess if we don’t reach the 150k mark you still get vengeance, and just not in October instead in 2014 or whenever.

I wouldn't bet on that. If we don't reach 150k, I don't think any pledges to this Kickstarter will result in people getting a copy of Vengeance.

Meaning, we could be giving +$40 for nothing?  That's not great.

It just means we'll have to pay special attention to the end of the campaign and then reduce our pledges by $40 if we're way short.

You can always change your pledge unless doing so would defund the project in its last 24 hours, which I don't think we're too worried about here. So if it's not making $150k, you could just reduce your pledge and recoup that $40.

Yeah, this is why I think I'm goingto have to skip this pledge upping. 

I'd be happy to add to this if we could have some sort of confirmation that even if we don't meet the goal, they could still mark certain people as "Vengeance Purchased."

If we don't reach the goal, then yes, I too will have to take back my extra $40 pledge. I'll glady drop $40 for Vengeance, but I can't drop an extra $40 just for nothing. But here's hoping we make it to the goal! We must!

Worse comes to worse I will use it to become a Playtester... something I was internally debating doing anyways. That said I could picture myself doing the oposite of an ebay sniper... "149k.... 2 minutes left... do I withdraw or not?!"

For everyone upping their pledges $40 for the Vengenace Expansion. If i doesn't hit the $150K mark to make it, consider converting the $40 to a playtester add-on. Once a >G playtester always a playtester for all of their games. 

Honestly, I don't think we'll have an issue getting to $150k, and if my adding my Vengeance payment now helps, I'm doing it. Personally, I'm worried that folks will, as we get closer, forget to put in their $40, and they'll end up complaining that we hit $150k and they didn't get Vengeance...

FYI: Kicktraq has us currently trending to ~$147k, which I don't think includes the full bump we'll see from folks adding their $40 for this.

My current guess as to what Veneance actually is, given it's compatible with the core game (I believe this was stated in a Kickstarter comment by SotM):

2) they add more storytelling elements like chapters of a story (first you have to investigate the crime, then find the base, then save the hostage, then defeat the villain).  Or perhaps they add objectives to fights so that rather than just pounding on the villain, you have to (or can optionally) complete side missions.

3) they make hero-style cards/decks for the villains and villain-style cards/decks for the heroes so that you could theoretically play as Legacy and Baron Blade vs. Omnitron.  This is the part that maintains the compatibility with the core game.

That'd be worth +$40 easy. :)

The goggles chick actually looks like the humanized form of Gilda the Gryphon from MLP:FiM.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110901215512/mlp/images/9/97/Gildaposeid.png

http://theuglyother.deviantart.com/art/Change-o-look-or-Human-Gilda-204532500

Is there some way I could add $10 or so for an extra vengeance box, should we reach $150?

I was actually planning on buying a core game to donate to the guys at my local game shop to increase awareness about the game (and possibly get them to stock it at their location).  Whether Vengeance is successfully funded or not, I win.

Seriously, if you guys have the cash you can put it to good use.  Become a playtester (it's great and it's for all >G's products, not just this expansion or just Sentinels of the Multiverse), pick up another copy of the core game for thirty and use the ten bucks for extra Unity and Ambuscade decks (it would make for a GREAT gift for the holidays), or add another ten onto your forty dollars and get the playmat (it's high quality and colorful, providing an excellent playing field and greatly enriching your Sentinels experience).  These guys give us great options to add to our pledges with forty bucks whether we fund this thing or not.  Go for it!

I know I am.  Starface, Hippocalypse, Tachynot, Fright Train, and Captain Blade all the way!

EDIT: Also Sleeveless Glasses.

Well I'm gone for the weekend, cant wait to see how much of a bump this produced on Sunday when I'm back in Boston.

I might need some replacement decks too...

My own wild guess about Vengeance would be smaller villain decks that you could combine to build a "team" deck - maybe with the same principle for an hero team. It would be "team deck vs team deck", sort of, with the possibility to play "normal" hero or villain decks vs. a team deck.

Until told otherwise (hint hint), I, too will call her Tachynot.

If only we had a name for Goggle Girl...

Also, anyone think that the somebody on that box turns into the Overdrive Dragon?

My theory?  That the Vengeful Five will be stylized as the Vengeful V (roman numeral five).

Yup.

From the Kickstarter comments:

nathan nanning: so you said this is a mega expansion (can be played without the core set) so what do the contents resemble? if you want to keep things super secret how about just saying how many decks would be in the box? the base game had 18, and expansion have each had 8, so vengeance would be?...

GreaterThanGames: Either 11 or 7, depending on your point of view :)

Well. That's going to keep me up at night, wondering... o_O

PS: I guess I should specify. Since this is apparently going to be a standalone expansion, that means it'll have more than two heroes and at least one environment deck... unless they throw the way the game works now for a loop and add new mechanics. I can see the Fearsome Five being the "11 or 7" part (Are they one deck or five? You decide!), but with all the villains on the box, I don't know how they'll all fit while still leaving room for new heroes and potentially a new environment.

Like the Freedom V?


Perhaps four of the decks are alternate interpretations of established Heroes/Villains, allowing the players to use their decks/character cards with decks/character cards that are already released?

Ooh...that'd be nice!

YES!  But with TWO Vs!  Now we have the FF and the VV!  Or the FV and the VV, but it isn't quite as alliterative that way.  Curse you Fantastic Four, with your established FF alphabetism…

EDIT: Sorry about the double post there, folks…

Also, this development:

Patrick Dorsey: Does our pledge of $40 purchase SotM Vengeance whenever it does come out even if $150K goal isn't met?

GreaterThanGames: Yes! However, the oversized villain cards and art prints will not come with it for free (and we don't expect to be able to make it in 2013) unless we get to $150K.

We're not paying $40 for nothing if we don't reach $150K! :D

By pure mathyness, I guess:

4 Heroes, "5" Villains, 2 Environments

5 Heroes, "5" Villains, 1 Environment

I lean towards the former.

@Reckless

Everytime i hear FF i think of the bone-shatteringly popular series FInal Fantasy. And so when I talk about The Fantastioc Four (Now the "Future Foundation" i have to the whole name and not FF.

I never hear people reference the series as a whole.  It's always individual games such as FFVI, FFTactics, FFVII, FFX, FFXIII (FFIX was always my personal favorite).

@Reckless, @UXM266

Funny, the acronym "FF" makes me think of Fantasy Flight Games, but that's probably because I spend a lot more time these days interacting with the board game industry than I do playing video games or reading comics :P

Well, these days I'm more involved with the Freedom Five than I am the Fantastic Four (never really been that big of a Fan4 fan myself).  But (to stay on topic) is anyone else curious about what the deal is with Tachynot?  She seems to be an exact pallet swap of Tachyon.  Evil clone?  Misguided parallel universe Tachyon?  Obnoxious twin sister?  A cosplay gone horribly wrong!?

From the update - "He has gathered his own team, the Vengeful Five! They are bringing the fight to the heroes, and are bringing an impressive array of other villains, all with their own vendettas against the many Sentinels of the Multiverse!"

So perhaps 5 main villains decks each full of individual villain targets.  Perhaps with nemesis symbols also as they have personal vendettas against heroes?

I really do hope it`s not a game when you play as a villain versus a team of heros. The first reason is simple - i want the expansion even if it`s a stand alone expansion to be first an expansion - and this game as expansion to the core game could pose at least two problems. First is simple - naming confusion , if my hero will deal 1 damage to all vilain target does that mean than baron blade that is in my team also get damaged or not? What if "hero" card deal damage to V (number or villains) -2 targets does that mean that my legacy cannot be damaged by it? Second reason is - i play sentinels for story - and where blade and tachyon and fright train in one team versus normal blade is mechanically completely normal - in a story standpoint is quite... sketchy at best. The third reason why i don`t like this idea is wasted potential - every hero and villain deck in this game got some special mechanics that make it unique. Now many of this ideas that could be used in heros will be used instead in "hero villain decks" and not only this - many of our pairings that some of us were expecting and waited for will not happen at all. If we do get for example a hero villain deck of fright train that could mean we would never get a villain villain deck of it. And that would make many bunker fans really sad. Of course we could get both but that pose another danger - just imagine fans asking when they will got their akashbhuta hero villain deck to play and greater than games will create one. Also it could lead to two flavors game - imagine you really like to play as a heros and instead of waiting for a year for a game expansion you got to wait two years , because there will be one expansion for villain game in one year (that you skip) and one for heros (that you buy). Splitting your fans is never a good thing - especially for a niche game like sentinels. If we do think about nemesis it make me really sad now , greater than game know we want hero nemesis pairs. But instead of giving us some of them they create a bunch of another unpaired decks with simbols just to annoy potential buyers. And nemesis of villain that is another villain or nemesis or hero that is another hero now is plausible and propably it will happen in future. That means that only information that do we get from villain cards for now - if its a icon in villain card that means there is some hero with this icon and we will get to buy it someday is not actual now. It`s very sad for me but if it`s a villain expansion that you play as a villain i think you got one fan and loyal customer less - it`s even sadder because sotm was a game that I waited for years. It got everything - clever mechanics , conitunuity in form of expansions and hidden story. 

My assumption is that this is going to be an expansion that will not needlessly complicate established rules or flavor.  >G has always given us excellent expansions that remained very true to the mechanics while still trying innovative, new things with their Hero, Villain, and Environment decks.  I doubt that they are going to completely uproot all structure between Hero and Villain decks and leave us running around like chickens with our heads cut off trying to understand completely new rules.  That just isn't their style.

Hah! Vindication!!

Pledge that 40 now folks, to bust us to that 150k mark so we get it out in Oct 2013 instead of sometime 2014!!

I've been away for too long and missed all this discussion! Okay, so, here's my thoughts.

It probably won't be a PvP type expansion. That wouldn't work with the rest of the game.

It won't be playing as villains vs. heroes. I just can't see that happening.

My guess? I think this might be what we've all imagined as fighting multiple villains at once. Not like the Ennead--You can choose from a roster of villains and how many you want to fight at once, and each villain gets their own deck. Of course, it would be really tricky to do all the scaling with that sort of gameplay.

Another idea: Maybe it's just a big expansion like some PCGamerPirate said: four heroes, five villains, and two environments.

But maybe the catch is you can combine the villain decks if you are so inclined.

Clearly without much more precision it is not possible to back this up for me. Especially as I had to rely on the generosity of a US backer to sustain my european backing. Adding 70$ more is not something I would take lightely...

I agree with what's been touched on by others in this thread. The '11 or 7' comment, I feel, is related to the villains proper. My take is that there are five villain decks: The Vengeance Five. These guys can function as individual villains, or one mega group of destruction, like the Ennead, but with individual mechanics due to each member having their own deck of cards instead of being referred to constantly as "the villain target with the highest HP attacks", etc. Also, it would add a ton of flavour to the fight. I imagine Tachynot (love that name, by the way) would be flying about the battlefield doing her sabotage that she does best, just like our beloved Tachyon does with her own deck. And, the chaos can only grow as the other members do their own thing as well!

That leaves leaves 6 decks, and I would generally consider four new heroes and two environments, just for the chance of choice with environments. However, the game is a five-player game, potentially, so there is a clear argument for five heroes and only one environment. I just wonder if pre-established villains can team up together or if it is an exclusive Vengeance Five thing...this is, of course, assuming that my hypothesis is anywhere near the mark in the first place.

Let me also just say: this KickStarter has been the best ever. Just about every turn has been something I didn't expect at all, or something that played so closely to my expectations, but far better, such as Visionary. We all thought her nemesis would be herself, but the first reveal was Dark Visionary promo hero card! But, her nemesis is still herself, just not how I originally thought it would be. Great twists, the lot of 'em!

There are eleven characters on the cover picture - all seeming to be villains - so I would not be surprised to see one deck for each of them with rules to play versus at least some of them as a team.

But, as the news says that it will be "playable without any other expansions or even the core game" I suspect we will be very surprised by the gameplay. And amazed. Astonished. WTF'ed. Greater than Gamed.

Extra $40? Done!

Someone asked if it was villains as playable characters, and Christopher indicated not. More details are supposedly coming Monday.

>G have said for International Backers that they could combine the two shippments into one shippment when Vengence comes out so you wouldn't have to add the second $40. But it would mean waiting six more months to get everything.

I imagine that if this expansion is able to be played without the rest of the game, we can probably expect to see more than two hero decks in this expansion. However, if this expansion is as radical in gameplay as some seem to think, that might not be the case. I think I'd rather have this have more than the normal number of heroes, but come with villains that have crazy, unprecidented gameplay mechanics.

I am totally stoked for this expansion. I went ahead and upped my pledge for it. I just hope more people up it at least near the end so that way it has a better shot of reaching the goal. It does make me curius as to why the copier is featured twice. At first I was thinking the villians in the back would have their own decks and the Vengeance Five would be in one deck, so the copier would be fought seperately or with a team. Though that brings the total up to 7 so that isn't likely since the option is it will be either 11 or 7 depending on how you look at it. I just don't know, there is so many questions that are raised from it. Gonna have my fingers crossed, because I want it be next year.

Copy Man is on their twice to indicate his duplication ability, I imagine. He's everywhere! No escape! Bleeargh!

Just for comparisons, although an unfair one…
Shattered Timelines including promo decks has 3 heroes (after hitting 100k), 5 villains, and 3 environments = 11 decks for $20.
At 11 decks for $30, how is Vengeance a ‘Mega’ expansion?

Vengeance is only a 'Mega' expansion in comparison to buying one of the other expansions without all of the promos. The vast majority of people who buy this game and the expansions do so via a retailer and don't get any art prints, promo cards, oversize villain cards, or mini-expansion decks.

Since you labeled your comparison 'an unfair one', perhaps you already had this in mind.

also, Chris could entirely have a mechanic that makes 11 decks work much differently. We know nothing  yet of the changes that will be occuring, or what 'Fun and Interesting' mechanics may be involvved. Plus this one is entirely stand alone, can be played without EE/1st, meaning that it a) has a base token set within it and b) the box is much bigger than just the normal sized box. - woth 10 extra bucks to me:p

I have an idea of what Vengeance might actually be. I'm in the somewhat rare position of having occassionally been around the designers when they've been talking about their future designs such that it's possible for me to have inside knowledge. On the other hand, my memory can be atrocious, and due to tiredness and distraction I don't always attend very well to what's being said. I remember, for instance, sitting next to Christopher and Adam in our hostel in Seattle for PAX as they talked in some detail about the planned heroes for Shattered Timelines and I was so tired that I completely zoned out and heard nothing of what they were saying.

Or did I?!

As I present my idea of what Vengeance is, maybe it's influenced by what I heard then or other times, w/out being conciously aware of it or remembering it. Keep in mind though, that I am the same person who thought for a long while that Ambuscade was an alien (a la Predator), when he is, in fact, French. (Hmmm ... is that a big difference? I kid, I kid!)

Anyway, here goes my idea: 7 or 11 decks refers to the fact that there are five villain decks that are intended to be played together. Of the other six decks, five of them are new heroes and the remaining one is an environment deck. So far, this is all the same as other people have said. Vengeance, though, also apparently has something cool about its 'components' and 'gameplay', so I found myself wondering what those are. My current guess is that it has something to do with fighting multiple villains at a time -- that the components help you give your battle some sort of spatial arrangement. Maybe one has to keep track of which villain targets one is near or something like that.

So, I don't have a really clear idea of what the new stuff is and I have no idea whether or not it was influenced by anything I might have heard from the designers in the past. It's probably all bunk. Can't wait to learn what Vengeance _actually_ is.

And with that 20 dollars you could play a three player game, with a handful of tokens, and have three decks lying around loose. And you already are admitting that the bonus Hero, Villain, Environment and tokens are “unfair” to include as comparison.

With the 30 dollar “Mega-expansion”, I would assume you get 5 heroes, 1 Special Environment (which may or may not be larger then others), 1 Super Deck of Villains that is made up of 5 Villain Decks, with enough tokens to play the game (and I am assuming a 3-5 player game) out of the box, and plenty of space to hold it all.

For 40 Dollars, you can get 10 Heroes, 4 Villains, 4 Environments, enough tokens to play the game 3-5 players and plenty of space to hold it all.

Kickstarter Expansion: 11 Decks and some tokens and a small box (enough to play the smallest recommened game)
Normal Expansion: 8 Decks and a small box (Not enough to play the game)
Mega Expansion: 11 Decks, Tokens and a Large Box (Enough to play the game - I assume full but may just be up to 4)
1st Edition: 18 Decks and an even smaller small box, with out any dividers, so they just jumble up all the freaking time (Enough to play full game)
Enhanced Edition: 18 Decks, Tokens and a Large Box (Enough to play full game)

To me it feels to be the price point feels fine, even with including the Kickstarter extras, but is vastly superior to a normal expansion at the retail level (which is honestly where the comparison should be made).

It also makes me sort of upset I was an early fan of the game. 1st Edition really does sort of suck compared to Enhanced Edition.

Or is it the greatest game of all time for exposing you to the Enhanced Edition of Sentinels of the Multiverse?

Yeah, I'm really glad I was an early fan (having picked it up when it was first released at Gen Con). I loved the game and thought it was good from the start, and the changes to the Enhanced Edition were only improvements - there was just no suck, to me.

I had this theory that the Vengeance set would feature 5 'hero' decks consisting of the Vengeance Five, 4 'villain' decks consisting of teams of heroes and maybe outside groups like F.I.L.T.E.R., and 2 environments. The fact that villains won't be available as playable characters blows this idea out of the water. Back to the drawing board.

I'm also disappointed that Hippo Man wasn't the centerpiece on the cover as he rightfully deserves. Why should a villain of his caliber be forced into the shadows of lesser beings like the Vengeance Five?

Because he's biding his time.  Hippocalypse doesn't just display his power willy-nilly.  He waits in the shadows and plots.  Every so often Haka weaponizes his halitosis or elbows all of the air out of his lungs, but that's just a ruse.  The heroes will face his tubby wrath soon enough.  Soon.  Enough.

That pretty much cements it for me.

But that's not soon enough.

In all fairness due to the modular nature of the game technicaly all the expansions can be played standalone.

Except that a Sentinels game is built for 3-5 heroes, and both of the published expansions have only two heroes with them.  Without the purchase of another Hero deck, it is quite impossible for a single expansion to be played on its own.

There's a vast difference between "impossible" and "not recommended".

But by the defined rules, that does clarify what >G means by "standalone."  You can play Sentinels of the Multiverse however you want to with your own house rules and clarifications.  But with that argument you don't even need the cards to play the game at all.  >G saying "standalone" refers to playing the game as presented.  I'm sorry for the confusion, but I was referring to the game Sentinels of the Multiverse without house rules, fan supplements, or alternate interpretation.

Yeah, especially when the boxes say "Requires the core game to play", I'd take that as an official ruling.

However, you could combine two expansions, and that would count.

Here's my two cents

The speculation is we're getting the Vengeful Five - Makes sense with what is stated.  The comment that's throwing everyone off is "11 or 7" as far as decks and how you look at it.

Ok

What if we look at it this way. We're getting 5 Villians at the least.  What if all 5 had cards with a "V V" symbol on it somewhere.  These cards indicate that this card will be used when playing as the Vengeful Vive...er Five. You pull all of these cards out and make one new deck, you place the unused cards back in the box.  Now.  It's never been stated how many cards were in each deck YET.  So this could mean Baron Blade's deck could come with an additional card or two that replaces his card's Villian health with a "group health" with additional instructions on how to "play the deck. This new "uber deck" is now One deck leaving us with six other decks as an unknown.  My thought is at this point three of those will be environments and the last three are either going to be Three new heroes OR Three new Playable Villians - or yes three VILLIAN VILLIANS - the kind that just won't group up with anyone *coughOmnitron_Version_3.0cough*

I can also easily see this as a PvP game.  While those may not be the original intentions, I can see it giving the game a different feel. I mean Tachyon and Bunker versus Fright Train and Tachynot.  Essentially two "identical" decks with the only thing being different being some of the flavor on the cards AND the fact that Villians don't always do what heroes can (which is why they all seem to over compensate)

I can also see Villians having a "V" mechanic.  Also something I've noticed - all Heroes of sentinels have "Powers" on their character cards. What's to say to identify a villian they'll have "Abilities" on their character cards.

I'm pretty sure it's been said somewhere that Villains won't be playable...

I'm very hopeful that they don't completely change the mechanics on us to the point that the game is recognizable from Sentinels and its three expansions.  I also, however, would be very surprised if >G did that.

(V) mechanic sounds plausible. It’ll be a great to scale according to how many villians in play.

I think/hope that it will be something like "less powerful villains, meant to be fought as a team" - after all, untill now, we only had "masterminds/leaders" and "powerful entities", if we do not count the Ennead. The Vengeful Five way well be a team with varying membership - maybe Blade is always the leader, but the other members may change. It's often the case in "classical" villain teams, after all.

Well the only reason why I'm speculating what I have is, it's a "stand alone" expansion.  I don't see how if we change the "Heros" to "Villians" how it would change the game dynamically.  In a nutshell if you really look at it. A villian is just a deck with specific rules with a specific number of hit points which the players whittle down.  The players are just several larger precreated decks which behave in a certain way that is matched up with a fictional character that thematically fits the type of deck played. 

A Stand Alone expansion may allow for some changes - especially with the Villians at the forefront of the expansion, it doesn't mean the gameplay has been changed (for the worse) it could allow for a similar experience (but as bad guys) or even create at the same time set up for a new gaming experience (as in allowing for possible PvP combat)

Maybe I'm just wishing all that because sometimes it is good...to be bad.

That all said, after reading the announcement again, I did notice this.

>

A: Several reasons! All Vengeance backers will receive with their Vengeance shipment, in addition to the game: 

• 3 Art prints from Vengeance!

• Villain Oversized Cards for the Vengeance Five!

Which means that there (at least) the Vengeance Five - the question now is are they one deck or several decks - (or in other words are there 11 decks or 7) 

My comment from my previous post about a special VV symbol was due to game play for the Ennied.  After playing agaisnt them, it really felt as if each member of the group was doing their part to beat down the heroes, Or each one doing their special thing.

So with that said, I can see 5 decks for villians - Each one with attacks they would do in a group setting (marked with VV) and some attacks they would attempt because they are on their own.

I also bring up that fact to agree with pcgamerpirate when he stated 4 Heroes, "5" Villains, 2 Environments

Also I'm gonna throw out there that -

• Every expansion has come out with 2 Environments (prior to stretch rewards)
• The base game has been stated to be tuned for four players (Due to when the H Mechanic came out - I remember reading that if you didn't like the H mechanic just replace H with 4 and tune accordingly)
• While it isn't up for 5 - it will allow 2, 3 and 4 players play. With the purchase of a promo deck (Unity) this could be brought up to 5.

finally - what better way to have their Vengence when there are more Villians than Heroes in the box...

I'm not sure how it will work exactly, but between the "There are a lot of VERY cool things happening in this game, from the components, to the villains, to the gameplay itself" and the "11 or 7," I expect that there will be some means of playing against multiple villains at once.  Their advanced rules may simply be how to play them when not facing them together.

It may actually be possible to mix in some of the existing villian decks as long as the mechanic doesn't allow each villain to play a card every turn.

I'm also hoping it doesn't have too many cards that cause shuffling.  There are some decks in Infernal Relics that I would prefer have much less.  It could get much more extreme with more villains at once.

I'm going to say two things, then run away and do more art.

1. Sentinels of the Multiverse is a cooperative game, and will remain so.

2. No one has seen the final cover art for Vengeance. 

*runs away*

Okay. So the oversized villain cards and the art prints will still be available even if we don't reach the $150k mark?

Alright, so no PvP. That makes sense.

I think people are getting close with their guesses about this being a way to fight multiple villains at once.

That currently seems to be the case, but they'd cost extra. Or at least that's my reading. Might be cleared up later today if >G do another update post now that they've successfully whetted our appetite for Vengeance.

@pwatson1974

Ok. Thanks for some clarity.

*looks at the pledge total rising suddenly*  By Baron Blade's burned beard, this last update seems effective !

Oh, man, we are so close to that promo hero! We're getting some sweet reveals tonight! Now taking final bets on the identity of the promo hero!

(To place those bets, go to the "World" forum section and the "Guesses on promo hero?" topic)

We are so rapidly approaching 100k I need to throw this link in first:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhero#Types_of_superheroes

SO

my money is ACTUALLY on a shapeshifter (either changing form or size) or government agent, I know that's like 3 guesses.

We're already under $300 to go. I hope someone at >G is waiting at a computer, update already finished, ready to hit the "post" button as soon as the meter hits $100K.

What about an Agent of F.I.L.T.E.R. with shapeshifting abilities?

That's what I'd like to see, Evandan. What else is there to do in a day, right?

Uh...guys?

We did it.

And it IS an Agent of FILTER with shapeshifter abilities!*

*Not really.

We don't appreciate deceit around here!

Really? So everything but his own body is fair game (according to traditional alchemy)?

Actually as an "alchemist" he technically does have shapeshifting abilites.  Just...not on himself.

ok not Directly...but...you know what I mean.

Hey I don't know for sure, I'm not an alchemist, nor do I play one on TV.

sometimes.

....

ok not really.

Well! I was wondering why there were so many villains on the cover and so few decks announced. Good to know I can tell the part of my brain that had been trying to figure that out to take a rest.

I assume the five villain decks we're all predicting will be the Vengeful Five, but some of the background villains will appear in their decks.

Are we thinking the 5 villian decks will all have an identical back, "The Vengeful Five"?  If you want to fight them seperately, you could maybe sort by an icon on the face?

Hmm.. An amalgam deck of multiple villains...  An insane robot who tries to use explosive coins to crash a flock of birds into the moon?

If you look at the Vengeance picture of Baron Blade, the scar on his face has gotten way worse.  He really should stop picking at that.

Don't worry--his scar gets healed in the Positive Energy Field in the Realm of Discord. He gets back to his handsome self!

So : five heroes, ONE environment and one team of five main villains.

I wonder what this environment that we'll recognize will be?

...FIVE heroes?! We need this by October 2013! So many heroes! So much to do!

FV HQ and/or Eaken-Rubendall Laboratory, probably. Blade's taking the fight to them, after all.

Mobile Defence Platform all grown up?

Baron Blade's home city of Mordengrad?

I'm not sure there's that many locations we know of that don't have their own deck. However, I suspect that this environment, wherever it is will make Rook City seem kind to the heroes.

EDIT: Oh, of coruse, the home of Tachyon and Absolute Zero makes absolute sense. That one might be a little nicer.

Only "one" environment is not much for a stand alone - I wonder if it will be an environment deck as we know them, or a new way to play the environment, as the "team of villain each with a deck" is a new way to play villains.

Keep in mind, it's a stand alone "Expansion"  I for one am still hoping for the Villians to also be capable of playing separate as well as together as a team.

I would imagine you can use any or all of the VV in the fight to set the level of difficulty, this would add a lt of variety to the fight. Also it will be interesting to see if we get a whole new Blade or we'll be using the original one from the Core set. 

I'm guessing, if nothing else, that we'll at least get a Promo Blade card with his fancy new duds and authentic battle damage.

 I have to agree with jagarciao: i'd imagine that the number of villains you face might scale with the number of heroes playing.

I could see that, but I wonder how that would be made distinct from The Ennead.

I think they have separate decks. Imagine an evenly matched game of heroes v. Villains where you still play the villain turns the same way, but u may have multiple villains go in a row.  Or, unlike the ennead, there are ongoing or equipment cards for each villain to bolster the team.

I think the main difference with the Ennead will be that instead of one group deck dictating how and when each of the villains act, we will have five individual decks with individual actions that will interact with each other as a group. Some cards will have buffs only for the specific villain whose deck it is, some will have buffs for the whole team, some will have redirects, immunities, etc. much like the hero teams do. 

I imagine the details haven't been quite worked out by GTG even, but that's the impression I got for their direction. 

I like the idea that the # villains = # heroes.  Instead of the regular order, though, it will alternate between villain/hero turns and then finish with the environment. 

I would really, really hate it if a team of villains meant that the 5-7 deck games we have been playing expanted to 5-11 per game.  I think that would be cumbersome, tedious, and require an incredible amount of space.  Color me unimpressed if that's what they're planning.  I like the idea of a Vengeance V deck with the four individual villains as the five Villain decks in this expansion much better.

I too hope that they are more of an Ennead 2.0 rather than multiple decks... you know, they could each have a "draw" as part of their actions therefore bombarding the heroes hard without the need of separate decks. Might have to be an extra fat villain deck but I'm cool with that.

Either way this is exciting, the Ennead scratched my team fight itch but this will be much more specifically supervillain themed rather than mystic themed.

Actually, I'd prefer it if they had their own separate decks. It'd give each of them a unique flavor and a chance for each member of the team to show off their evilness. I'm hoping these are five separate decks that you can choose how many you want to fight. I've never found myself pressed for room to play this game. Whenever I play, we always have a huge table with space to spare.

Do you normally play with five hero decks, five villain decks, and an environment deck?

Here is what would be fascinating... decks that can work as a hero or villain.

In other words they dont have a ton of copies of limited cards or whatever... In other words you get a hero card with a power and a villain card with a "at the start play the top card, at the end of the turn to X" which is similar to the hero power.

These would use the terms Allied Targets and Opposed Targets as a subsitite for hero and villain targes.

Trust me, the tables I use could easily hold all that.

Though I understand not everyone has access to huge tables like I do. Thankfully, my university provides study rooms with enormous tables that my friends and I commandeer and use as our gaming tables.

I think that would be confusing, as Villains have Devices, Victims, etcetera that heroes do not have, and they've never had Equipment cards in their decks.  I don't know how that would work out without being either complicated or rather bland.

Then it sounds like my group will be using your tables when Vengeance comes out, because we don't have anything quite so large.

I have played with 6 heroes and up to 3 villains and an environment deck (with house rules, of course) and it was still manageable with the modifiers and stuff. 

Come over and visit me at my college, and we'll have a Vengeance day.

Well it is the same as how heroes have tools, golems, styles, modules, ammo, etc. It can be done.

You mean Equipment, Targets, Ongoings, Ongoings, and Equipment with those respective subtypes.

I don't think five villains designed to play as team will take much more room than the Matriarch, The Chairman or Voss, for instance.

I'm also taking into consideration multiplying the villain turns by 5.  At that point, over half of the game (five villains and the environment) is being played for you.

But does that mean it takes away from the experience? Will the game be any less fun? If that's too much time taken waiting on the villains to go, then I'm sure you can just play with fewer villains and the difficulty will scale. Hopefully this will also play as someone else said where if you play 5 vs. 5, the villains will go in between each hero turn, so it goes villain-hero-villain-hero etc. That would keep the pace going more.

So, in order for this idea to work, we need to change the round structure and potentially not play with five villains when the appeal is playing with five villains?  This doesn't sound very Sentinels-y to me...

I imagine these decks would have more equipment and modifiers and less independently acting targets, so it may not be too bad, maybe not even worse than, say the Chairman with a few underbosses out. 

But I do see your point about the time concerns. 

Maybe there will be reaction triggers where the heroes will be able to respond in the middle of the villain turns

I'm sure it won't be that bad. If it functions as "all villains go, then all heroes go" in a 5v5 game, it's up to you to keep the pace. If you want the games to go quicker, then you have to get your friends and yourself to concentrate on the task at hand, run through the villain turns in a timely fashion, and make everything work.

You're a playtester, right Reckless? Then no worries; we'll work this out in a few months.

Well... we know nothing about how this game play will be implemented, how many cards will be in the villain decks, how many ongoing effects will have to be tracked, how many cards will be in play at a given time and so on. It's a little too early to judge if the game play is boring, the downtime too long or the game unwieldly. It may be, we'll know in a few months, but for now we can just express concerns and trust GtG and the playtesters to gives us something good.

Hakuna Matata.

That is true.  I'm definitely looking forward to that!

You mean, Haka na Matata ?

Oh, you!

I’m not sure why everyone seems so concerned with how the “5 or 1” Villain Decks are played. It may be as simple as they rotate, which gets to play a card every turn, with all of them having their base “Start of turn” and/or “End of turn” taking place.

Then again it may also be far more complicated than that. Personally, I’m already working on a multi-villain environment hopping variant for running at conventions I go to, so I can think of several simple ways it can be handled ,and countless crazy complicated ways it can be done.

I have faith that what ever way they go it will be fun, with an optional side of crazy.

One thing I have begun to wonder is if you can do one on one battles against the Vengeance Five. Finally able to have legacy take on Baron Blade with no one else around, which I think would be pretty awesome. I'm also hoping that each of the villians will only have one nemesis symbol for their own respective member of the Freedom Five.

The environment I am really hoping that it'll be the Mobile Defense Platform. What's more recognizable than that? Or maybe if Akash'Bhuta became an environment deck...

I'm more inclined to think Vengeance is all about the villains taking the fight to the heroes, so the environment will be one of the hero bases. But Blade's MDP would be the other likely candidate.

Maybe the Mobile Defense Platform over the Freedom Five headquarters? Honestly that could be a pretty interesting Smash Up (fun game by the way) and could open up a lot of different combination of cards. The only downside is that there is only 15 cards available.

Looking at some of the comments on KS, it seems that there may be insufficient incentive for more pledgers for Vengence as it is. And I can see the reasoning behind it. Strictly speaking, oversized villain cards are not exclusive game content, hence it may not attract collectors. For this group of people, purchasing it from their local store of online store may be more economical (not to mention freeing up some $40 worth of gaming money to be spent elsewhere instead of tying it up for nearly a year).

i think what is needed to push Vengence over the fence will be additional game content promos. Such as a promo villain or hero character card! Look at how many people are looking for Young Legacy now. 1 promo card does wonders.

@ketigid I can understand why oversized cards and art prints aren't much of an incentive for many people to pay a year up front when there has been so much on offer in the rest of the initiative. I don't think anyone running a kickstarter project wants an environment where a chunk of funding could disappear in the final few hours, and given how well >G work kickstarter projects I imagine they anticipated such a reaction before they even started. So let's push for that $125k reveal and see what happens next! A Vengeance only bonus deck sitting just past $150k could drive a flood of funding.

The question is more about what time is left...

I think some people might be seeing a preorder for Vengeance as a self-gift or even gift for someone else for the holidays. That's the way I see it.

im with Evandan - i look at it as a self gift that will be ag reat surprise

I haven't pledged Vengeance, and I have several reasons for it.

1. Lack of funds. I spent a ton of money on board games at Essen, and then another batch of money at our local gaming fair called Spellenspektakel. I just don't have any budget for personal board games anymore this year. I need to buy gifts for family and friends for the holidays (something called 'Sinterklaas' (6th of December) and Christmas).

2. I only 'discovered' Sentinels at Essen a month ago. I have bought the enhanced edition and the expansion Rook City. I still even haven't got Infernal. I have tons of stuff to discover and it's going to keep me busy for quite a while. I'm in no hurry. There's nothing wrong with waiting a bit :)

3. I kickstarted Shattered, and I won't be getting it until Essen next year, unless I'm willing to pay shipping costs that are just as high as the price of the expansion itself. I'ld rather have that money go to the publisher, instead of spending it on moving a small box from A to B. Paying up front for another box which I will be getting at the same time as Shattered is, like someone said, tieing up even more money for a whole year. My boyfriend already thinks I lost it because I'm paying for an expansion that I won't be seeing until October 2013. Plus, see 1 :)

4. Frankly, I wouldn't mind having a seperate kickstarter project for a big box. With it's own stretch goals. Right now, like someone already mentioned, I might as well wait until it shows up in the store, because there isn't much added extra with this box. I would however, kickstart it, regardless of extras, if there was any chance that it wouldn't get funded to get printed at all, ever. But that's an entirely different situation.

I'm looking forward to Vengeance, just not now.

This. Exactly this is why I can't pledge Vengance also. I have to make sure two munchkins have a happy Christmas instead. My entire budget on boardgames this year was spent pledging Infernal Relics and Shattered Timelines and having this sprung out of nowhere means I don't have time to readjust the budget.

Unfortunately, there will not be another Kickstarter. >G has stated this is there lasts SotM kickstarter - they are now funded well enough they do not need the Kickstarter to continue to fund SoTM projects, and instead will be doing pre orders through their own site and distributers.

They will do kickstarters for their new projects with no backing, but no more for SotM.

I wonder how thats going to change if we get any more Promo Decks?

I imagine they'll just have one-deck mini-expansions available through their website every now and then to supplement the traditional multi-deck expansions.  These might be available free or at a discount for people who pre-order the large expansions and then be available separately at full cost once they are released. 

Of course that's all speculation at this point. 

EDIT: there were some weird typos…

They may even be planning to go the Tentacle Bento route.  Soda Pop Miniatures was able to run a fairly successful kickstarter-esque campaign with stretch rewards on their own website.

>G may be considering continuing to use the kickstarter model, but hosting it themselves so that they do not have to pay the % fee to kickstarter.

Just speculation at this point, but it is a possibility.

I was thinking they might just stick to releasing mini-expansions alongside other expansions, just to cut down on shipping costs and such.

Hmm mini expansion deck as a preorder bonus ? That would be great , i hope it could be cooridinated in a way where europeans can preorder game from european distributors and still get this bonus. It would be fantastic.

Val and/or Veet,

PM me. May be able to help with item 1 on the list.

Indeed, I see why several people have not upped their pledge.

Besides the fact that the game will come in a year or so, Oversized villains and/or art prints are not something I am really enthusiast about. I have the first batch of oversized cards and I never use them. I also received art prints but tbh they were a bit low quality to be hanged (and in all honesty they arrived bent and broken), so I just threw them away.

Another issue is that the game will be cheaper at my online shop. The expected MRSP is 30, which normally goes below if you order online...paying 40 is a bit too much for my taste.

Thanks to the support for oversea kickstarters I am in....but I understand why others are not

Personally, I find it hard to imagine playing without the Oversized Villain cards.

I, too, don't use the oversized cards. main reason was not being able to sleeve them.

Ketigid, I believe

http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Pro-Soft-Sleeves-100/dp/B002H0PXCG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353759144&sr=8-1&keywords=4x6+sleeves

or

http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Pro-Top-Loaders-Packs/dp/B000O9QJP2/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1353759144&sr=8-4&keywords=4x6+sleeves

Will solve your problem (I use both.  The soft sleeve inside the toploader works very well).

thanks. I'll try to find them locally.

You might also try hobby or photography shops.  People use them for 4x6 photos and postcards.  \

Collector's shops might also carry them, since they are not uncommon for certain specialty collector's edition sports cards.

The oversized villain cards are almost perfectly 4 inch by 6 inch, so anything that would fit a 4x6 photo or postcard will work for the oversized villain cards.

*Contemplates framing his oversized villain cards and hanging them around the dwelling, taking them down to play.  Would have to be a double-sided frame.*

Why would you need to sleeve an oversized card?  They don't get shuffled and should never experience much in the way of wear at all. Must be an OCD thing. ;)

For me, yes it is a bit of an OCD thing.  Also, the "flipping" tends to bend the cards just slightly.  Thus, I have all of my stationary cards (oversized villains and hero character cards) in soft sleeves and then inside rigid toploaders.  (Hey, that Young Legacy card is irreplaceable!)

Called it.

yup, OCD against greasy and sweaty fingers and having to pass the card around to players who want to read them.

Bingo.  I have the hard toploaders.  I should get some soft ones just to be safe…

Seriously, though.  I love this game.  I want it to be kept safe.  All of it.

I seriously cannot image playing this without the oversized villain cards now. They're just so much better than using the smaller ones. I know it's a minor change, but having th giant villain cards actually goes a long way for me. It really makes the game a lot better to have them.

Well, it really is a question of how much are you willing to pay for those? 

I mean, kistarter's vengeance will cost you 40$ (including shipping + oversized cards) , whereas if you get it from an online shop it will cost around 25$+ shipping. Are you willing to pay 10$ more for them? 

Of course, you are supporting >G by buying them at the kickstarter, but right now money is kind of an issue for me…so I am afraid I have to bail out. Even if I want the Oversized cards later, I guess that they will be available for 10$ or less, but right now I cannot aford them.

The only reason to double sleeve (soft sleeve inside the toploader) is that the toploaders are not archival/acid-free.  Double sleeving is truly a bit OCD.

Will that damage my cards if I don't double sleeve them!?

In theory, it could cause some fading over time (ie several years). Really, it should be fine.

I'm willing to pay the extra $10 right now. I guess I just see it as freeing up my money later, and I need assurance that I can have those oversized cards.

I noticed that the Vengeance box cover is not prominently showed on the front page of the kickstarter. Instead, it is hidden in some obscure update #18.

Maybe putting up the box image on the front page will be more attractive for new backers?

3 days to go...

I agree, putting box art up would definitely be a great way to attract backers. However, I remember someone from >G stating that that image isn't actually the box art… They might have a reason for not posting the box art yet.

I think they keep art for the last 48 hours of the campaign, maybe for the banners, maybe with the mysterious and yet only hinted at heroes...

That'd be smart. A teaser for some of the heroes and new art of the V5 in another team pose might be really good for promotional purposes. I think they'll unveil some amazing things in the next few days to give some buzz about Vengeance.

Back to the game play : I just dreamed of something and it woke me up.

What if the five villains were not fighting "together", but one at a time ?

You first fight Ermine, for instance, she has her own deck, including some other minor villains as targets. When she is defeated, rather than flip or become incapcitated, you replace her with another member of the Five, with his own deck and allies, and so on until you have finally defeated all of them.

Only one villain turn, with one card played, and a very very different flipping mechanism : change the villain deck.

I thought about it, and find it would be very similar to what often happens in comics with this kind of team of villains : they don't fight together, they just each are following one part of a big plan, and the heroes confront them one at a time.

Well. Maybe I can finally sleep, now :)

How would you decide which villain came up next, in that case? Also, I think it more likely that the Vengeance Five have an incapacitated side if indeed you do fight more than one of them at once. They are, after all, the "opposite" to the Freedom Five...

I somehow doubt so. This would make the game quite longer. Also remember that Christopher said "This team of villains have several synergies between each other"...so they must play together. Somehow BB reduces damage to Fright Train, Fright Train redirects all villain damage to him, meanwhile Ermine destroys equipment, etc...it makes more sense.

Proletariate justa dds wave of enemies slowing the characters down like cannon fodder. He is a misguided lapdog at this point. Baron Blade doesn't care much for him as a person, so it'll make sense that he's on the frontline killing himself for the sake of BB.

Put the super secret 90k oversized bug fix on the rewards chart. I wonder how many ppl even know about it.

With the now recoginzed match ups in Vengeance...

Captain Blade - Legacy

Friction - Tachyon

Ermine - The Wraith

Fright Train - Bunker

Proletariat - Absolute Zero

...what do people think about how nemesis situations will work?

One is a reiteration of an existing nemesis pairing. 2 have previous nemesis already (could these be second nemesis?). 2 had not yet had a nemesis reveal (will they still get their own one on one nemesis outside this team?)

Maybe this is a second set of nemesis. Maybe these won't be nemesis but have a different function altogether. Mabye they will be a collective nemesis set against any member of the FF.

I am really intrigued to see where this goes.

It also seems odd though that the 5 of them will thematically go against a set of heroes not seen in this expansion.  Unless there is a stand alone Young Legacy deck as one of the 5 heroes in this expansion to match Captain Blade there will be no internal nemesis matchings.

Though we do have The Assistant, Kismet, and La Capitan who could all get a nemesis out the Vengeance heroes.  With Unity and The Scholar still hanging on for post Vengeance expansions.

Well, the way I see it, 3 of the Vengeance heroes will be nemeses for the other 3 villains in ST that lack them, which leaves 4 heroes without nemeses (Unity, Scholar, and the other 2 vengeance guys) and no villains without nemeses. If they go back to the normal form of expansions, there will be room for 2 more before the pairs are all evened out. 3 if they want Bunker and AZ to have nemeses besides the VV ones.

They feel more like rivals than Nemesises. None of them is a high level threath, if acting alone, and while they have their reasons to hate the Freedom Five and look for revenge, I don't think our heores would see them as anything more than a typical bad guy like many others.

I wonder if the "rivalry" aspect may just be that each one has deck built around the weaknesses and strengths of their chosen ennemy, rather than the "nemesis rule". Maybe , for instance, The Proletariat has cards giving him resistance to cold attacks. They don't have a Nemesis bonus - just a deck that give them an advantage against their personal "counterpart".

"Rival" is actually the word I've been thinking of as well. I could see them working out the way you describe. But my initial thoughts had been that each of the VV would have the nemesis symbol of their counterparts, but not necessarily be their main nemesis–just be a rival, with nemesis damage bonuses. But I'd love to see the villain decks be counterparts to the heroes' decks and vice versa. In a game against the Freedom Five, everyone could be having their own personal grudge match against the rivals, all at the same time. This would be an interesting and nice take on gameplay, not to mention being thematic gold.

BTW what really is a Nemesis ? 

Some Vilain that is by background the foe of the hero or some Vilain that mecanically is harder on the hero ? because currently not all nemesis are both...

A villain that has a certain connection to a particular hero or heroes and therefore wishes to do them the most harm/stop them, and vice versa.

Technically a Nemesis would simply be a particularly passionate and difficult rival who is determined to bring about your demise. 

I believe in this game the Nemesis status is decided thematically (through background story) and then an additional game mechanic (the +1 damage modifier) is added to the villain/hero combo to represent that Nemesis status. I don't think there is anything else mechanically that indicates that relationship. Which is why I am excited to see some kind of built-in rivalry put into the Vengeful Five deck mechanics. 

I always considered the Nemesis status in the game as a comic book reference : the nemesis of a hero is the villain he always finds on his path, sooner or later, the one that the readers would immediately think of when thinking about the hero. Legacy fought dozens of villains, but the one everyone associates with him is Baron Blade. But I tend to see the game as meant to be an "adaptation" of the comic books. Except that the books don't exist :)

Nemesis (mythology), in Greek mythology, a spirit of divine retribution against those who succumb to hubris. - WIkipedia

"Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible c**t... me." - Bricktop, Snatch

Two versions!

That's the proper noun, Nemesis. The god. Obviously this is a different meaning of the word.

Hahaha. Great quote UXM! One of the best lines of the movie

But not all that different since nemesis, the noun meaning arch-enemy, is directly derived from Nemesis, the Greek goddess of vengeance. 

McBehrer. You are now my nemesis for doubting my copying wikipedia! VENGENCE WILL BE MINE!

WE GET VENGEANCE EARLY WHATEVER HAPPENS. PROCEED TO THE NEAREST CERTIFIED PARTY SPOT AND DANCE.

I had intended to wait until hitting 150k before putting the additional 40$ in, but now it's time to bust out the wallet again.


I AM SO HAPPY. I LOVE YOU ALL.

"We will post more info on this new Legacy promo if/when we hit the $150k mark"

No one pointed out the 150k is a Legacy promo?

I was waiting impatiently for the 130K mark because I expected something like this from GtG. You rock, guys.

Onward to WWII Legacy !

Huh? They posted the actual card right above that, preceded by: `If we do hit the $150k level, we will send a new hero promo card (ANOTHER PROMO HERO CHARACTER CARD!!!) to everyone that orders Vengeance as part of this Kickstarter. A fantastic promo card! A promo card for freedom! A promo card that looks like this!!!'

So what do you mean?

They mean that they will post the background story of America's Greatest Legacy when the 150k will be reached -as, n fact, this card won't exist unless we reach the goal.

Anyway, I'm excited at the idea that this Legacy may very well lead the fight against the Last Unreavealed Villain of Shattered Timelines.

Oh yeah, where's the bio for that last villain? I'm excited to read his bio.

But I don't care right now, I'm rejoicing over this Vengeance news!

My internet is slow. The picture never came up, it looked as though there was no new card. My bad… internet error. :( 

That would be… well… interesting, to say the least.

haha, ok. I just thought I didn't understand what you meant, hence asking for clarification. 

Wow! Pledges really spiked now! Email reminder plus awesome announcement having their intended effect, I see

I already upped my pledge for Vengeance. I cant anymore, due to funding… Let's get more people!

I imagine a lot of people were like me and waiting until the kickstarter got close to 150k before upping their pledge. With this, I imagine we actually will hit 150k. 

Ooh, baby.  I'm going to turn that Classic Legacy into an oversized card and play the heck out of him. Love it.

I really start to think about upping my pledge a bit more to get another Legacy deck, because now.. 1 just doesnt seems enough.

I've been thinking of doing the same, but at this point, I'd be out of room in my EE box. With all that we're getting, my box couldn't possibly hold a second Legacy deck. My solution, though, is just waiting for my friends to get their own copies of the game (which they are), and telling them to bring their Legacy decks if we want to use more than one.

So what card(s) will we be getting along with WW2 Legacy to represent the fact that he shouldn't have access to Fortitude and whichever power was first generated by Pauline's grandfather (this version's son)? :B

Ooh, good point.  Maybe Gramps Legacy should be played with only a 35- or 36-card deck.

Or maybe every time you get a card he shouldn't be able to use, you substitute the text:

Whippersnappers!

POWER:  Kick those damed kids off your lawn.  Draw a card.

Christopher, Paul, it seems you forgot to update the reward ladder on the KS home page. I know you may have to update it a lot today, but ...

Also, you may want to give a link to update 29 on the home page (and on all new updates, by the way) just in case someone doesn't know yet !

And by the way - I admire your business skills as much as your storytelling and game design ones. You are truly Greater Than Games.

Or how about this!

Outdated Social Views - POWER: Female heroes cannot deal damage. Increase damage dealt by male heroes by 1.

Hahaha. But female heroes gain another power:

Make Sandwich: Male heroes regain 1 HP. 

Personally, I think those cards should be replaced with:

Punch Through A Zeppelin:  Legacy punches through a zeppelin.  America!

lol

Since we know Legacy dies in the normal story line, does this mean in Vengeance they would most likely have a grown up version of Young Legacy leading a new Freedom Five to keep the fight going. Would also fit the Vengeance storyline.

That would be cool.

It'd be awesome to see Young Legacy get her own hero deck. But I can't see it happening; she already exists as a promo card, and her deck would probably wind up being just like the one we have now for Legacy. At least, I think.

Either Vengeance happens before or after Legacy's death.

If after I can see change in Young Legacy to bring her to take up her fathers mantle. If the death of Young Legacy could create Iron Legacy. I do not see why Young Legacy's fighting style would not change due to her Father's death and deserve a deck of her own. Maybe instead of tanking damage she would be more focused on damage dealing. Or have more ongoing destruction cards instead of damage mitigation.

I wonder, will see any hint about the Vengeance heroes before or at the end of the KS ?

Later, as a way to tease us while waiting for next October ?

I don't know why (well, except a few card art) but I would expect a team of young heroes... The Freedom Kids ?

It seems like they might make those new heroes the side kick /successor of the Freedom Five lead by Young Legacy. 

Like on Wraith's incapicitated side there seems to be a "Red Robin" hanging out at Wraiths grave.

We are probably wrong, but it would be a fun idea

there might be a new legacy deck. otherwise, why would new players who buy vengeance as a stand alone receive the greatest legacy promo if there isn’t a legacy deck in vengeance?

Because they want you to buy Enhanced Edition after getting addicted. Which could mean 5 new awesome heroes with new powers/play style.

Though if all the "Nemesis" relation are self-contained it is most likely it would be a a new variation of the Freedom Five as they said these would be new heroes. So sidekicks/successor seems to be the logical assumption.

I'm hoping the heroes in Vengeance will fill in the missing nemesis for some of the villians, such as La Capitan, Kismet, and The Assistant. Though it doesn't seem likely since Kismet and The Assistant were contest winners and the heroes may not appear for a bit. Although the mysterious fifth hero in the Prime Wardens would be another hero I would love to see.

Some of your hopes: granted!

You like doing this , don`t you Chris?

SO. MUCH.

I think we're really onto something here, guys... Ketigid might be onto something about the Legacy promo card, but then that would mean all of the Legacy hero character cards would be interchangable with the others decks, so Finest could play with Youngest's deck and vice versa. That'd be weird.

But it could happen.

A team of heroes led by Young Legacy? That's a very fun idea. That might even include the young blonde girl wearing a costume similar to Visionary's in Argent Adept's deck. I'd love to see a team like this.

I'll be prudent, and just consider it means that yes, some of the heroes in V may be nemesis to some of the villains in ST ;)

Like Kismet's guy, right? I feel like he's probably motivated by revenge. I assume Kismet has screwed over a lot of people. And then one comes back to kill her.

Christopher is fueled by our ignorance and yearn for knowledge. He's a monster!

Yeah, he is the dreaded Hintweaver, the walking mystery.

The fifth member too Prime Wardens is my main hope that I want granted, for the pure fact that it will be awesome to play a Five Player game with them against the villianous Akash'bhuta, plus his glowing hand intrigues me. Kismet's nemesis is also a fun sounding one, after all for some reason he is being shot by Expatriette.

It'd be easier to think about this if we knew whether or not the 5 heroes in Vengeance were supposed to be a team or just independent people that sometimes work together.

It's actually easier to not think about it until after we get Shattered Timelines. Vengeance isn't going to be an actual thing for almost a year. Speculation at this point is just insanity.

Ha. Agreed

Think the speculation is so interesting is Vengeance is a leadup to the envitable death of Finest Legacy. 

Hello, have you seen the Sentinels' fans on this forum before?

grin

I just had a thought...

The members of the Vengeance Five are all a bit, well, shit... At least as far as villains go. It's clear that they are all second rate, B-quality villains at best, and so need the team. Well, what if the heroes in Vengeance are similar? A team of heroes that are really not that heroic, but still somehow get the job done?

I'm thinking of inspiration taken from the movie Mystery Men, about inept superheroes. That movie featured Mr Furious, who's power was "getting angry", without actually giving him any super strength. It also had The Shoveller, who... Hit people with a shovel. Invisible Boy, who couldn't actually become invisible, he just thought that he could, so he took his clothes off all the time. The Blue Raja - he, well, threw forks. The only real super was The Bowler, who had a magical bowling ball with her father's skull in it.

Maybe these guys wouldn't make decent playable heroes, but as some sort of sidekick card? That would be sweet.

Freedom Five Side kicks make perfect "B quality heroes" and would maintain the nemesis. Unless >G expects them to get Core for the nemesis games. 

Though to be fair they might be trying to create an awesome villan group like the Secret Six. (B-C list Villans) Awesome stories.

Delicious, delicious insanity.

In any case, as long as The Assistant's Nemesis Icon isn't just a gigantic tease and I eventually get to see what kind of hero is awesome enough to have a curly bracket as his icon I'll be happy.

Well, Invisible Boy could actually become invisible as long as nobody was watching him.

 What's that? Speculation would be pointless right now?

I won't hear it and I won't respond to it!

Maybe Young Legacy gathered 4 of her B hero friends and form the Freedom 5B.

I'm sure whatever >G comes up with will be great, but here's my guess:

Each of the 5 villains will get a deck, before the game starts, you randomly select a predetermined number of cards from each of the 5 decks (maybe five), they will form their own deck with and you will fight against five villain targets who will play one mixed deck.  This allows for random plays each time, yet still give enough variety for this to be a stand-alone expansion.  I think playing a whole team of villain decks will just make the game drag too long.  Just a guess, even though it's a ways away, I love the suspense...