State of GTG - February 2017

This is one day late due to how long Kickstarter updates (and a few other projects) took to get together, but here we are!

Here is a quick summary of things we accomplished here at GTG in the past month!

1. We launched The Letters Page podcast! It has been going incredibly well in terms of both listenership, and in terms of contributions to Christopher and Adam's creative process. There is a lot of stuff in both OblivAeon and the Sentinel Comics RPG that were requiring long story conversations between the two of them anyhow, so now we're just recording those and cleaning them up and sharing them with you all, and it is going great!
2. We've planned out a ton of stuff for both PAX East and Gen Con. Yes, Gen Con, even though it is February - the deadline for event submissions is next week, so we've been putting a ton of planning into that show. We'll have a ton more there than we ever have before, and we'll have a much larger presence as well - it is pretty exciting! We'll also be at PAX East with our largest booth ever in Tabletop, where we'll be showing off the production version of various different projects, including Spirit Island and Fate of the Elder Gods.
3. Jenn has continued to work hard on our next Kickstarter project, Dubai: Rebuild the Ruins. Now that all of our Jenn-managed projects are off to the printer (basically everything Sentinels of the Multiverse and games designed by Darrell Louder), Jenn is working on Dubai before turning her attention to the Sentinel Comics RPG.
4. Speaking of the Sentinel Comics RPG, it remains on track for a Gen Con 2017 launch! That means that you'll be able to sign up for RPG events at Gen Con, and even be able to buy the starter kit for the RPG at the show! We'll also have a Kickstarter for a core rulebook as well as a few supplements that we launch around that time. We'll have more RPG information for you in 2-3 months time.

As usual the last few months, we've been working on clearing our project backlog. This is in spite of the Chinese New Year, which has completely shut down the factory for all but a week of time since my last post. The factory opens again starting next week, and will be fully spun up in about two weeks. Here is the status of all of our works in progress!

In Stock Since Last Month

1. Time Management, Traitor Mechanic, and Trick Taking
2. New Bedford errata tiles
3. Shattered Timelines & Wrath of the Cosmos
4. Compounded reprint
5. Brew Crafters reprint

Shipping to Backers

1. Nothing this month.

In Transit; Scheduled Delivery February

1. Some more SotM reprints.
2. Deck Building: The Deck Building Game reprint

In Mass Production

1. Lazer Ryderz
2. Exoplanets
3. Viva Java
4. Viva Java: The Dice Game
5. Spirit Island

At Factory; Pre-Press Work

1. Fate of the Elder Gods
2. Bottom of the 9th: Clubhouse (also still waiting on a few late art pieces)
3. SotM: Ultimate Collector's Case

Current WIP Focus by GTG

1. Completing OblivAeon
2. Sentinel Comics: The Role Playing Game
3. Dubai: Rebuild the Ruins (on Kickstarter in late February)
4. Prime War
5. A new and improved website.

I'll see you next month!

From what I read of the update from Kickstarter, Chinese New Year is the reason we didn't hear anything about the Ultimate Collector's case, correct? Is that the story for the KS upadate previous-to-last as well?

Thanks for the update, Paul!

The Meta Games II Kickstarter didn't get a First Tuesday update, and there are still some pending items for some people, and others are having issues getting a response on incorrect orders. I'm guessing based on the info above that the shipping state for the first wave of Meta Games (Unpub and Deck Building) will not happen until end of the month/early March?

Just because I'm super curious (and I apologize if this has been asked several times)...is the collector's box planned to be shipped alongside Oblivaeon + the other backer level items, or is it possible to see it sooner? I realize and understand the practicality of shipping everything in one go, rather than splitting up order fulfillments, but I just thought I'd ask.

@bobbertoriley

Yes, you are correct!

@Killswitch

The big box will be shipped with all of the other OblivAeon stuff. However, we're doing R&D on that a lot sooner since it is by far the most complicated. All of the rest of the stuff is pretty simple (e.g. the Foil Villain Cards), or super trivial (e.g. the mini-expansion, or OblivAeon itself) from a production standpoint.

On the New Bedford errata tiles, I asked Craig about them a little bit ago, but haven't heard word or received them yet. When should we ping again? (I ordered it retail, not via Kickstarter.)

I'm curious about the choice of words "starter kit", in the discussion of the Sentinels RPG.

Is the RPG going to be in the form of a more traditional core-rulebook or are we looking at some sort of boxed set?  

In the post, it describes a core rulebook as a separate entity.

We'll also have a Kickstarter for a core rulebook as well as a few supplements that we launch around that time. We'll have more RPG information for you in 2-3 months time.

so glad to see projects that weren't around are now announced, will be kickstarted and delivered before prime war is ever done.

Remember now that they aren’t designing a lot of these products, but rather just publishing. They are attempting to move from a game company to a publishing company. That means some products will come to them almost entirely finished and be able to enter the queue in a farther up spot.

This is said with my fan hat on, not a moderator hat. It is a tough thing about Prime War but that doesn’t mean other games on different, possibly more external tracks can’t proceeded faster.

@dpt

If you haven't heard back yet, ping me directly and I'll get those sent out to you asap.

@godzilla999666

Prime War is definitely a weird exception to the normal flow of publishing that we've gotten into. In order to make it worth doing, it is by necessity very complicated and time consuming, and will take quite a lot of time from quite a lot of different people in a way that other games in the pipeline will not. We definitely understand if anyone is frustrated by this fact, and I'm very happy to give anyone who preordered a full refund at any time if they so desire.

@PlatinumWarlock

Since you asked, here are some more details on the Sentinel Comics RPG! This is still potentially subject to change of course, and there are some details that are deliveratley being saved for a later, official reveal, but at this point a lot of it is pretty locked down.

1) We will have for sale this year, likely at Gen Con, a Starter Kit for the RPG. This will consist of a number of booklets containing a set of pre-made characters as well as a multi-part starter adventure. This will go into retail sale immediately without going to Kickstarter first.

2) We will have on Kickstarter this year a core rule book, as well as some other related books. The core rule book will include a more detailed reference document for the whole RPG system, a decent amount of Sentinel Comics world information, GM resources, character creation rules, etc.

3) The rules set for the RPG is primarily the work of Critical Hits Studio, members of which have worked on a number of different RPG products over the years, including the Marvel Heroic Roleplaying Game. The Sentinel Comics RPG system is not based on any existing system, but has been specifically crafted to a) reflect the feeling of comic book story telling and b) be easy to pick up and learn for players and GMs who do not have a lot of familiarity with RPGs.

4) The game development is being overseen internally by Christopher, with the graphic design by Jenn and art by Adam. In addition, Christopher and Adam have crafted all of the Sentinel Comics story necessary to build up the post-SotM world of the RPG. All of that work is in large part why we are doing The Letters Page podcast now; they realized that they needed to be having those sorts of conversations anyhow, so we just added a little bit of structure to their conversations, and brought Trevor into town to record and edit them.

Is Spirit Island still on track for March, or is it drifting into early April?

Regardless, you might consider reassuring the Kickstarter comment section. It’s pretty quiet, but that just makes the lack of official response more noticeable.

I suppose my only worry about this methodology is the potential for the Starter Kit to have material that isn't made available in the core rulebook.  I really don't want to purchase the same material twice, but I'm much more inclined to buy a completed corebook over what are, effectively, quick-start rules.  Others' mileage may vary, of course.

I think the quick-starter pack would be for those of us who can't wait to get their hands on anything to do with the RPG.

And if you think about it, someone who gets the starter will be able to get into the main book even faster since they'll be ahead of the curve, and therefore be able to play sooner.

It could also be useful for "checking the waters", so you don't blow too much money funding a game you realize you wouldn't like.

Prime War is rough because it is getting pushed to the back of the line, but not because it is not valued, but because it is going to reuire so much to do it right that the options are do Prime War and push everything else way back, or do everything else while Prime War gets much less attention.

Playtesters are still working on Prime War, not as heavily, but some good things have been getting feedback, it just isn't being focused on.

There are a good number of playtesters that are heavily invested in tactics, and it is going to end up in a great place.  A decent bit of the changes are being tested, and at least to me the game is feeling like a cleaner and faster version of itself.  I really can't say much, but if you are anxious for the state of Sentinels Tactics, I want to assure you that it is headed in the right direction, and the dedication to it being a great product is still there.

One thing to note about Prime War is that it is harder to effectively redesign a game whilst keeping the flavour of the original than it is to develop a game from scratch.

With new games it’s a case of design, develop, test, refine, release.

With Prime War any alteration to the rules as we had them in Flame of Freedom has to be important enough to improve the flow of the game, whilst minor enough that veterans of Flame of Freedom will be able to jump in with minimal problems, otherwise they may as well sell it as a completely separate game and forget the comparability pack.

On the opposite front of requesting a refund, will those of us to preordered have the ability to upgrade our orders when Prime War eventually launches?  So for instance, if we didn't include minis in our original preorders but now want them, will there be an opportunity to add them? 

@dprcooke

Yes, definitely. However, we don't want to open that for new orders until we are actively in production on that game, especially considering the history of delays and redesigns on that product.

@PlatinumWarlock

The starter kit will include "quick start" rules, as well as characters and an adventure that are not in the core rule book. The core rule book will have a longer form version of the rules, and probably a different, shorter starter adventure.

I put in an order for obliveaon (spelling?), the complete hero foils, complete Villain foils, and the collectors box back in the beginning of dec of 2016.  

Here it is, first week of sept, 2017, 9 months later, kickstarter funds were reached a long time back, and yet I've received little to no word from any emails that have been sent multiple times along the way.

Those products are still showing that they can be bought through the main publishing site.

What is the hold up?  9 months??  

Jennifer

let me politely ask - have you received any links to the Kickstarter updates that have been sent out monthly along the way? There should be a new update coming this week; generally on Tuesday although the holiday in the US may mess with that.

I didn't order it through kickstarter, trather the greaterthangames.com website.  I didn't even see the kickstarter until months afterwards.  So no updates have been given.  (And I won't get any perks of the kickstarter campaign because of the GTG website not directly linking or mentioning the kickstarter at the time....)

That being said, when I ordered through this website, it was listed as in stock then, now changed to preorder, and all the preorders I've ever done (many) were a month, maybe 2 or 3, not 9, and not with little to no contact given when directly written asking about it.

If the kickstarter amount was hit, in great excess, what's the hold up?  Part of kickstarter is to the get the money to do the promised things.... well, money was gotten.  So..... where's the promised things?

Most of the promised things on your list are still in development. The Collector's Box is I think finally fully designed but still in progress regards actual production. OblivAeon is receiving extra work and playtesting since the Collector's Box puts a delay on everything. Stuff like the Void Guard decks are done but waiting on OblivAeon. The foil villain deck is the only thing I think we haven't heard anything at all about the progress on.

So in essence you haven't received most of your preorders because the products don't exist yet to send you.

The only thing on your list that confuses me is the foil hero deck; that one's already done and produced and I thought everyone else got theirs? I would send an email about that one.

They were all on the same order, which might be while they haven't shipped it yet.... but with the funds, you'd think it could be done more timely....

9 months to wait would have changed my ordering.....

The only item to be available for purchase around December 2016 would have only been the Foil Hero Pack.   The rest would have been a preorder and with any other preorders I've seen with GtG nothing will ship until all items are available.  As to the Kickstarter funds they are still being used to develop and produce the game but the campaign reached levels they never expected.  Thus this took longer to produce everything than they anticipated and as of this point only that Foil Hero Pack (which was limited quanties and won't be reprinted) has been produced.  The rest if I had to guess might be out by December/January timeframe.  Since you didn't order through Kickstarter I would imagine your order will be processed once backer have been sent their copy.  None of the Kickstarter updates have been private so you can view them here https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinels-of-the-multiverse-oblivaeon/updates and expect a new update should be pushed out the first Tuesday of each month.  

I did a post on the Kickstarter comments a while back, because a lot of people have been complaining about the delay on Kickstarter as well.

One thing that is important to remember is that Oblivaeon is a massive product. It contains 11 new hero decks, 5 new environments, an actual comic book, two seperate foil packs, 28 new variant heroes (most of whom are for those new decks of cards), a completely new way to play the game, Oblivaeon himself, 10 scions, both of whom have decks of cards, and a aeon man deck, as well as the mission objective deck and the box to hold everything.

And I probably forgot something.

I compared that to the Kickstarter for Shattered Timelines which also gave us Vengeance. Timelines/Vengeance is smaller than Oblivaeon on alomst every level (It had one more environment but that's it) and it took them a year and 2 months, 14 months total to deliver those two products.

We are only just now approaching a year and a half, or 18 months, on the delivery of Oblivaeon. And, Oblivaeon has landed smack in the middle of the busiest time GtG has ever had, with multiple major products landing in just the past 2 or 3 months, and the RPG and rewrite of Tactics also on the horizon.

Yes, I would have loved if GtG had been able to give us a more accurate picture of when we would get this game. Yes, they were incredibly ambitious and probably bit off more than they could chew. But, we aren't actually very far off of where you could expect to be just by running these numbers, and the game and everything in it is coming.

Now, one reason you might not be getting a lot of response (if you were asking before Gencon, because Gencon is delaying all responses to everything) could very easily be because you pre-ordered on the website instead of thru kickstarter. As I mentioned, a lot of people have been complaining, demanding their money back, and even threatening to report GtG for Fraud because of how long this all has taken. However, they respond fairly regularly on the Kickstarter. IF a lot of those people have been sending e-mails to complain as well, it is very possible that GtG has filtered them. Because the answers to their demands have already benn put on the Kickstarter, so responding in email as well might just be a bit too much for them to handle right now.

So, I personally urge patience and understanding. You are going to get what you paid for, it is going to be amazing, and there really isn't anything that can be done to make this whole proccess any faster.

While I agree it might be massive, wouldn;'t having most of the bugs ironed out before asking for money (i.e. kickstarter) be the thing to do?  Or even once the funds were gotten, sit down to iron those out ASAP as opposed to getting the funds and then delaying over and over because of multiple projects that the same people are trying to do (i.e. overtasking yourself)?  

Waiting almost a full year once funded is dramatically too long considering I've already done 3 other kickstarters that have already been delievered within 2, 3 months of kickstarting for better organization....

My point is that if it takes that long to deliever the product once funded, there's something wrong, either in development or in execution to go from money to deliverable product.  I know folks who did the kickster for Shattered Timelines who were waiting for their product when I could go to the store and buy it from the shelves.  That again, is bad service in my opinion.

If, and big IF the website, GTG site, DIRECTLY LINKED to the kickstarter at time of ordering (so that those who ordered on GTG were redirected to the kickstarter and could qualify for the extras as well), that might have added more understanding.

If and big IF there was more listing of prior similar projects done and their delievered dates from kickstarting, folks could have made more educated decisions.

If and big IF there was emails sent or customer service really to address the concerns more so than just no response at all, folks would be more understanding.

To me, and this is opinion based on the experience, it's a cascade failure of customer service, of development, of delivery and of execution all up and down the chain....

I am greatly disappointed in GTG and am grateful this is the last set, to me, for I would not go back to the game after this because of the lack of actions taken over this ongoing issue....

They're not bugs, though, they're just normal development stuff for any game. The reason for the Kickstarter money was to be able to afford to develop the game.

IIRC the only thing that experienced actual unexpected issues was the Collector's Box, but since the vast majority of Kickstarters ordered said box, it was just unfeasible to ship everything else ahead of the box being ready to go.

[/quote]

It's actually pretty  common for games to take this long to develop. Chaosmancer listed the development schedule for previous SotM games, and I'm used to kickstarting video games in particular, where the most recent video game I got delivered to me from a Kickstarter took 2 years to ship after funding.

I admit I'm unsure what ongoing issue is concerning. There's been plenty of updates on the Kickstarter which are open to everyone, and the development schedule has been pretty normal other than the Collector's Box. It's unfortunate nobody pointed you before now to the kickstarter updates, but otherwise things have been pretty normal.

I have ordered kicksters from other games, that are stand alone sets for games, that have already come.  3 different kickstarters I've funded, that have delivered since ordering this 9 months ago....

The ongoing issue is if it takes a year, year and a half from funding to devlivering, when other makers of games (even grass roots ones), can devliver in a shorter amount of time for similar product, or that GTG takes consistently this long with little emails back and forth whenever folks have questions, is part of the ongoing problem.

When they did Shattered Timelines or other sets, friends I know ordered the kickstarters for them.  The set came out in stores, I had the set, and had it for a month or two before they got their kickstarter version.  That is concerning....

Not informing buyers of the consistent time lag of a year+ is concerning....

Not answering emails or deflecting answers is concerning....

Doing other projects rather than focusing on fully funded ones where folks have been lagging, is concerning....

Not having a customer service number on the website and not answer emails for weeks, is concerning....

Those are my issues, among others....

First, not every KS is the same and I've seen various results.  Some deliver early, some on time, and some after their expected deliver date.  Considering the size and scope this KS ended up being this isn't surprising for me.  I would guess as best GtG expected to raise 100k to 200k but ended up with over 1.5 million dollars so there is a lot to produce. I will give them fault for not updating people who preorder through the site as they wouldn't get emails that KS Backers would.   However, through those updates on the KS updates, which are public, they've been pretty clear about the delays.  People want their stuff now and I get that but this is their end for SotM so they want it to the best it can be.

When they did Shattered Timelines or other sets, friends I know ordered the kickstarters for them.  The set came out in stores, I had the set, and had it for a month or two before they got their kickstarter version.

That would be an exception rather than the rule based on other KS campaigns they've run.  I'm not sure what happened in that instance but that is not their standard.  

That is concerning… Not informing buyers of the consistent time lag of a year+ is concerning… 

I agree preorders through the site should get some sort of notice but they have been informing KS Backers through public updates.  I would recommend at this point to check out the KS Page the first Tuesday of the month for updates since you aren't getting direct messages as part of your preorder

Not answering emails or deflecting answers is concerning… Doing other projects rather than focusing on fully funded ones where folks have been lagging, is concerning… Not having a customer service number on the website and not answer emails for weeks, is concerning… Those are my issues, among others…  

This is Gencon month and they've recently had other KS projects come in during August so there would be a lag in responses.  I would recommend sending follow up messages and/or sending messages over Twitter.   It's a company of about 11 people with only one person who is really in charge of handling emails so it takes time.  That also would be why they don't have a direct customer service number as they don't have the resources for that.  In regards to other projects, most of the other projects lately don't involve Christopher or Adam majorly so their time isn't taken up by that.  They have been focused on OblivAeon and they still have responsiblities as heads of a company.  From their podcast they described how their time is spent.

I'm guessing what happened is that those other products also spent 1-2 years in development, but they funded development using other income sources then did Kickstarter near the end of things for the production/funds recoup of an already developed game.

Whereas what GTG and other companies do is use Kickstarter funds to actually fund the development process as well as the production phase.

Because, I can guarantee that literally no game that isn't very very very simple is actually going to take only 2-3 months to both develop and produce.

I mean, I'm the other way around and I'd be concerned if it only took 2-3 months to both develop and produce OblivAeon because it'd be rushed like whoa and I'd be concerned that Adam ended up in the hospital with hands worn down to nubs.

Handelabra actually kinda touched on this a bit during their own Kickstarter; the fact that so many companies use Kickstarter as supplemental funding can leave companies who use Kickstarter for all development funding subject to misinformed perceptions on the part of customers regards how much time and money game development actually takes.

They did inform buyers. OblivAeon's been publically known as a Kickstarter this entire time, the Kickstarter updates are available to everyone, and it's normal for a game in development to take a lengthy period of time.

I do think it's unfortunate that they didn't make it more clear on the preorder page itself that it was done by Kickstarter, but it's not especially obscure knowledge that it was Kickstarted, either.

1. The other products are partly or wholly developed by other people with GTG as the publisher. Not doing them would lose GTG a lot of revenue to keep going while not actually adding much time to work on OblivAeon development.

2. Especially since AFAIK the main holdup is the Collector's Box, with the holdup being engineering issues and the GTG folks are working with outside design people who are doing the engineering. So not doing other products would doubly not actually help with the current delay.

Mainly because for a small company it's more efficient to handle customer service issues via email or forums or Kickstarter updates.

And if you contacted them recently, then they were delayed in answering because they were at GenCon.

I have emailed them months prior, only to get little to no word.  The little word I got would be a month later if I got anything at all.

Fine, they did the funding prior to development, as opposed to development then funding.  Fine, they are only 11 full time folks.  Fine there is excuses after excuses.... but hey could have out sourced, they could have contracted, they could have done much with getting over a million dollars for a kickstarter that only asked for thousands....

I have friends who playtest for small publishing games.  1, 2 folks in the company.  Even they don't take this long....

There was no clarity of a kickstarter being done when the preorders were listed on the GTG site.

There was no eqality for the ones who ordered from the GTG site to get the same perks, be redirected to, or mention of the kickstarter.

There was no clarity of communication or customer service skills done, even by part time folks in order to address the needs of their customers.

There has been an ongoing issure in a year+ worth of delays between full funding and delivery for multiple projects.

There has been too much work, or too much demand for 11 people to keep up with without outsourcing or hiring more folks to get the work done.

I'm not happy by the business customer service, not happy about the lack of information, or the lack of clarity.

I'm not happy about the delay with just a box when it's not that hard to just design it and design the artwork for it, given most of the artwork can be at their disposal from previous used images.

I'm not happy about the delay, the denial or lack of acceptance that the ball was dropped, or the fact that things could have been done better.

You lose customers doing this and given prior comments, they have when folks ask for their money back....

Well your options at this point are to either stick with your preorder using the KS Page to see status updates or cancel it for your money back.  Either one won't affect your happiness at this point with the project but that's the only piece you have control over.  Personally, I hope people stick with their orders since as a playtester I've gotten to see the material and play some of the material that I think people should be overall happy with what comes out.  

I hate to be indelicate, but… a lot of your complaints are predicated on just kinda misinformed expecations on how game development works.

None of what we've said is "excuses", it's us trying to explain the realities of producing games.

They actually did outsource and contract some things, but in the end SotM is what it is because Christopher is the one who writes it and Adam's the one who does the art, so there's a limit to what is outsourcable.

Plus again the main thing causing the delay right now, the Collector's Box, is one of the things they contracted out. OblivAeon itself is actually close to done.

They did. They added stretch rewards such as hero decks, extra environments, and promos that weren't in the original specs.

This is a valid issue, but the news of OblivAeon has also been all over every major site that covers board game news, the game's subreddit, and the forums here.

A year's worth of development is normal procedure and normal time, not delays. The game was being worked on during that time.

And as was explained the other products were mostly done by other people, so not doing them wouldn't have helped the delay any.

There is nothing easy about trying to design a game like this, and I'm honestly not understanding what part of the game you feel could get away with recycled art.

We're not accepting that the ball was dropped because the ball was not dropped.

I mean, if you want to be mad at GTG because you think a game takes only 2-3 months to completely develop, produce, and distribute, that they can get away with recycling a ton of art, that it's easy to design a game like this, that they can outsource everything about a game that is popular because of Christopher and Adam's particular creative contributions, and that GTG wasn't clear when there's multiple avenues of communication available and every update about the game is publicly viewable, while not listening to anyone in this thread trying to explain the actual situation to you, we obviously can't stop you, but I'm at least certainly kinda frustrated about it.

Recycled art = for the Collectors box images on the box itself, especially if the box was supposed to carry all the cards from all the sets.

I am aware of how other companies have done in their kickstarters, such as Steve Jackson Games, and other indie games, that do not have the same year long lag.  I am also aware of how some who have published their own games, with a staff of one or two, have taken for their own kickstarter.  My experiences and those of friends I have had who have published their own games, have lead me to different conclusions.

If someone isn't happy enough to ask for their money back (as mentioned in previous replies), something is up.  If many people do it, something is ~wrong~.  I've done 20 years of managerment in various forms of customer service, and this wouldn't have been allowed in retail, in food industry, in services, etc....  Not without a reputation being tarnished, because for every one complaint, you will have ten people, minimium, being told about it before you ever hear about it....

I have a right to my opinion, to my feelings on the matter, and to suggest that they are incorrect, only "sours the milk" more so....

Attn: Everyone. This discussion can only continue if there is respect for each other, and this has to be obvious from the words that are used. If you feel you cannot do this, please leave the thread.

Nothing you've said has been wrong, IMO.  GtG feels like it should be a grown up company so it's surprising when they're still so bad as some of the basics like the things you mention.  I've noticed a tendency by many on the forums here to dismiss or excuse delays and poor communication by GtG, which can be offputting to someone new who expects normal levels of customer service, but I think it comes from a good place.  At the risk of speaking for others, I think the superfans here are so bought into the company and the people running it that they are honestly not bothered by these problems and when they give "excuses" for the company, I think they're truly trying to get you to a place where it doesn't bother you either.

I've had to ask for a refund after an unbelievably long delay for a GtG product, and my advice would be for you to just decide where your limit is and when it's been reached, either ask for your money back and move on or decide that sticking it out won't bother you (much).  The games are fun and usually worth the wait, if you can handle it.

If you have not yet checked out the kickstarter information they have released about the development of the Collectors box, it might be worth taking time to look it over.

Many of the initial designs ran into issues with wearing out and getting destroyed within a few hours of use. I'd personally be furious if I recieved a product that was destroyed within moments of me using it for the first time.

So, they iterated it, redid corners and flaps and drawers, reinforced various sections that were getting messed up. Now, unless you drop the full box onto a corner, nothing else they have done has caused signifigant damage to it.

And that was a hard process, every expansion ever probably weighs between 30 and 40 pounds (I've never measured it, so if someone has a more accurate number please provide it) containing all that in drawers which add stress points to the design that need to hold up to years of use and play? That was not something which they could "just do". And we haven't seen anything other than a white box yet, so it is entirely possible that they will be recycling art for it, but it is also possible they saw the extra time they had with the redesigns and decided to make something more special.

And, they have admitted to us that they potentially could have shipped this game by now. It was "finished" to a degree, but with the delays the box caused they realised that they could spend some more time polishing it to a shine. Having played Oblivaeon demos last year at Gencon, and hearing/seeing it at Gencon this year (I'm sad I missed the demos for it) they have changed a lot of mechanics. And probably for the better, because it sounds like they cut the playtime in half, which it did need because it was an incredibly long game last year, taking us nearly 4 hours to work through.

I hope none of this is sounding like I am dismissing your frustrations and concerns. I'm not trying to and I doubt most of the other people are trying to do so either. However, outside of your concerns about the communication, I'm hoping to provide a context so that you don't end up hating the company.

I have a friend who designs board games. I'll throw names out. Eric Ebbs, he is the sole full-time employee of Mythical Era's of War, which has produced Era of the Ninja the only boardgame he has released to date. I played the alpha version of that game, which had already been in development for some time, about seven years ago. Around three years ago he started working on an expansion for the game. That expansion has been playtested at Origins and Gencon, at the very least, for the last two years. I know this as a fact because I volunteer with him at Gencon and have run those games. That expansion is still not ready to go to kickstarter, and he refuses to even talk about a date when it might go to kickstarter because it isn't going to go until it is "production ready" which means all of the development costs, all of the costs for artists, everything, he has paid out of pocket. His kickstarter will solely be to send things to the printers

Over two years of development for a rather simple expansion. It changes some core rules a little bit, but not much. And, if you look only at his kickstarter, it will seem like he did all the work in a few months, but that is a false impression. Luckily, most of his customers are aware this is a false impression because we;ve been advertising the expansion is "coming" for two years.

You've had a lot of very lucky expeirences with other companies it sounds like, and you're profession is dealing with the public so it is frustrating to see GtG making mistakes in that arena. But a few mistakes does not a debacle make. GtG is in a weird spot as a company. They are too big to be considered Indy, but too small to be considered a big company. They have tens of thousands of fans across the globe, and 11 people working on producing that content. They are probably too small to cheaply outsource, and they probably rightly fear the loss in quality if they outsourced too much. They are at a turning point as a company. And, honestly, I'm kind of excited to see where it goes.

Yeah, I can fully understand that if you're working from incomplete information, you might end up with certain frustrations and concerns that are perfectly valid if that information is all you have available. If you're used to it looking like games only take 2-3 months to develop everything, of course you're going to be thinking "WTF is with this company taking three times as long?"

I had instead been trying to explain the surrounding information the person hadn't gotten to know before now, since once you know the info most of the perceived delays start to make more sense. I was hoping to assuage their concerns, not dismiss them.

And you did a better job of explaining that info than I did, I will definitely give you credit for that. Like I realize belatedly that I didn't make it clear enough that it was the box's structural design that was being engineered/causing the issues and not the art design.

The one thing I'd add is that I think it was a mistake to offer preorders for products that were still so far off.  >G did this with Tactics, too, and that didn't pay off either.  Kickstarter is one thing, its users understand the risks to a certain extent, but offering pre-orders on a product that's a year or more off and could still be subject to months of delays is a good way of eroding your fanbase.

I hadn't considered that, and it's a good point.

For me, I'll fully accept the title of Super Fan. I have yet to be disappointed to a large degree with the games I have purchased from GtG and the story for Sentinels has been my obsession for years. I've gotten immense enjoyment from dissecting the stories and theorizing on some of the overarching plots.

When the offer came out to get a refund on Broken City, I seriously considered it. The thing that stopped me from getting that refund though was the acknowledgement that, being the Super Fan I am, I would probably end up purchasing the product down the line anyways. For me, there is a measure of peace in knowing that the money is spent and gone, and that the product will arrive when it is ready. I like that, and I've kept a few pre-orders for a long time. I just recently found out a comic book I pre-ordered last christmas got pushed back to 2019. No idea why, but it is issue #1 of the series, everything about it looks good, and I love the author's work. So, I'm keeping the pre-order. I'd just go and buy it when it comes out anyways, no reason not to simply have it sitting and waiting for me instead of having to remember when it comes out.

But, I am not everyone and my financial status is pretty pathetic and unstable, so I could see how other people might get frustrated and would rather have the money they "spent" back now for other things and then purchase the product later when it comes out.

I just started playing Sentinels about a year and a half ago, and only get to play it on digital due to my life circumstances, so my feelings on the matter come more from comparing GTG to other gaming companies I'm familiar with and feeling they end up being no worse than usual at the worst and very favorable at best.

I also have a policy as being someone of more meager financial means of never dropping an amount of money on a Kickstarter or preorder that I can't handle never seeing again. So far only two products I've Kickstarted haven't delivered so I don't feel terribly burned.

Plus we know OblivAeon isn't vaporware; it's almost done, the supplemental decks are done, the holdup is the box and that's because it turned out to be harder than expected to design an affordable box that can survive carrying 40lbs worth of cards.

I personally don't know of anything that extended OblivAeon's development that happened specifically because GTG is a bad company.

And while the lack of communication for a time was an issue, it's also an issue that GTG listened to and has since then addressed.

I can tell you that in my offline life regards stuff outside of games, my experience with "normal levels of customer service" amounts to "we screwed up something catastrophically in a way you literally can't afford to just ignore, spend months doing absolutely nothing to address it no matter how many times you contacted us, then proceeded to constantly hang up on you and badmouth you any time you try to escalate the situation", so... even by my expectations of normal levels of customer service GTG is doing pretty good...

(Seriously don't ask about my experiences with being a caretaker regards anything involving the healthcare industry or any sort of social services if you don't want me to rant your ear off.)

I just measured it. All the heroes in the SotM box, all the team villains & environments in the Vengeance box, all the regular villains in the VotM box, all the boxes in a tote bag. Tokens, oversized cards, foil heroes all in there. No rulebooks or anything unnecessary. 

That all has a mass of 6.1 kg (13.4 in barbarian).

The OblivAeon + extra content would probably bump that up to 7 kg I expect. And sleeves would approximately double it of course.

I know I've argued a lot with you over delays, and I agree with this post entirely.  I bought in for OblivAeon, because I trust Christopher, Adam, Paul, the playtesters and everyone involved to give me a finished product I want to own.

I know they are incredibly passionate about SoTM and the delays aren't because they don't care enough about the product.

I accept that that GtG right now is in a place where they almost need to be run by a business side person.  But I wouldn't want Christopher or the games they make to be subject to hard deadlines that would cut corners and lessen the product, nor could I ever imagine Christopher or Adam being willing to let someone take over the wheel and steer their dream.  So I am left with a choice, like you say, of where I draw that line.  For me that line will be drawn the minute I see signs that Christopher or Adam aren't still passionate for the story they are telling.  Because as long as that remains, I have good reason to believe that the wait will be worth it.  No matter if the wait is reasonable or not.

I think a lot of my fellow fantinels would say the same.  Our buy in is enough to wait for a very long time, even if we do get antsy when communication goes bad.

This reminds me that one of the reasons I love Sentinels is that while it feels like the world is increasingly gaining "creative" stuff that's actually carefully and mathematically calcluated to one degree or another, Christopher and Adam are of the sort who seem do their art because they actually like doing their art and actually have a specific thing they really want to tell. Yes they want to make money off it and almost certainly keep that in mind when creating, but this is still their passion.

So… yeah I'm more willing to slide on polish when I can sense earnestness and sincerity behind a given project.

(Aside: I remember quirking my mouth a little when Christopher threw shade at modern pop in the Argent Adept episode because it's kind of the same deal. While pop's always been the more processed genre to some degree, there was still plenty of pop back in the 70s and 80s and early 90s that had an air of being "present day folk music" where it was still telling stories about the culture and experiences of the day by people who really wanted to do music. But too much pop nowadays feels really processed and calculated to the point of being kinda soulless.)

Oh god, I hope this is not a thing.

Fan terms aside, I'm in the same boat. I've been here long enough to know that there have been delays previously, and that those delays have always resulted in solid products I'm glad to own. I trust in GTG enough to know Oblivaeon won't be any different. As much as I would like to have it in my hands right freaking yesterday, the wait will be worth it.

Isn't this, well…Paul?  My understanding of the >G structure–and, this is totally as an outside perspective; I've had passing conversations with Christopher and Paul at Origins and at GenCon, but nothing further–is that Paul was brought on specifically to handle the business/logistical end of things, leaving C&A to focus on the creative sides in game development/writing and art production/direction, respectively.

I think it all boils down to one word: trust.

A few of us have been here long enough that even with delays and bumps on the road(or full-blown feld trees that you have to wait for a roadcrew to move), we trust in the products and developers. We don't mind the wait if it means that the end result will be that much more fantastic.

There are a lot of very fair cricitisms in this thread! Communication and customer service are definitely areas that we know need work, and we've been putting significant extra effort into those areas recently. We still have a long way to go, and are hopefully going to be able to hire a dedicated person for that role for the first time before the end of the year.

In terms of production delays, unfortunately those will always be with us and every other company that releases products that are creatively and/or logistically complicated to produce. This is of course true when a company is inexperienced (there is a reason why almost every Kickstarter from almost every new company is late), but also when companies are scaling rapidly and/or extremely ambitions with a new product (which is why the Tesla Model X, OblivAeon, many Blizzard games, etc. are late). We continue to learn things to help mitigate this (the Lazer Ryderz Kickstarter was delivered early!), but there will always be some projects that are delayed, and delays will always generate more public complaints than the early or on-time deliveries generate public thanks - that's just human nature :)

In short, thanks for sticking with us through this process! I know that many of your are SuperFans, and we're very grateful for your support, but we are also grateful for the honest, constructive criticism that we get, both here and elsewhere! It helps us continually improve!

Finally, for goliath20031977 or anyone else who ever has a preorder that they'd like to cancel, please send us an email and we can cancel and refund your order! That isn't just true in this situation, but in any situation of a web store preorder. I want to make sure that goliath20031977 knows, but also that all of you SuperFans know and can let people know in the future if this complaint ever comes up again!

Hi,

For what it's worth. I think that one of your good idea was this 'State of GTG' messages.

I was kind of disapointed not to see it for August, but I put that on the Gencon not leaving you much time.

But it would be really great to have a 'State of GTG - September 2017'

My two cents.

I'm actually working on one right now :)

And it’s up!

In these times of delay, let us not forget the Sentinel Tactics Kickstarter Miracle. The spirits of Kickstarter giveth and taketh away!

Thanks for the conversion to Barbarian

That's actually way lighter than I expected, it feels so much heavier when I carry it all. Good to know I'm just being wimpy about it.

When we put a number of cards equal to the final number (including foil and oversized), plus all of the tokens and rulebooks etc., and sleeve the cards in penny sleeves, the full box weighs roughly 40lbs (18kg).