GTG Project Status Update - December 2015

Completed Since Last Update

1) Bottom of the Ninth shipping.

Finished by Printer; In GTG Warehouse

1) Villains of the Multiverse and associated mini-expansions

2) New set of Oversized Villain Cards

3) Isle of Trains, Diner, and Brew Crafters: The Travel Card Game reprints

4) Wager Master reprint

5) Compounded reprint

We have begun the massive task of shipping out all of the preorders associated with this! It will probably take 3-5 weeks to get everything out, especially with Christmas and New Years in there. Here is the ship order:

a) Backordered Oversized Villain Cards

b) US Preorder Backers

c) All Canadian Preorderers

d) All EU Preorderers

e) All other International Preorderers

f) US late preorderes (from Gen Con, etc)

At the Printer; About to be Loaded

1) SotM: Core Game and Miss Information reprints

Completed by GTG; At the Printer

1) Rook City & Infernal Relics and Vengeance reprints

2) New Bedford and Nantucket

In the Final Graphic Design stage at GTG; to Printer in ~60 Days

1) Great Heartland Hauling reprint

2) Spirit Island

Current Game Developtment Focus by GTG

1) Sentinel Tactics: Battle for Broken City and For Profit

2) Sentinel Comics: The Role Playing Game

3) Various Dice Hate Me Games properties

Thanks for the update Paul.  Looking forward to VotM and the Oversized Villain Cards. 

Paul, I have some traveling issues over the next couple weeks. As a us preorder can you give me a rough idea when u think those will go out so I can plan accordingly 

So not non-US shipped first to "make up for" the Wrath shipping? Huh.

Just got a shipping notification from FedEx regarding a GtG package.  Considering that I didn't order anything during the holiday sale, I'm going to assume that this is my VotM pre-order...

...which makes me a very happy warlock, indeed.  :D

I don't understand why they don't get international orders out first every time, doesn't it make sense for as many poeple as possible to get their stuff at roughly the same time? The cart before horse way that it's usually done at >G just means that the US get all their stuff quickly and weeks later it starts to appear in the rest of the world (and usually after retailers are stocking and selling it too). I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't even get shipped first at the one time they promised they would do so, but whatever, I'll still be enjoying this when it turns up in a few weeks time.

Playing Gloomweaver advocate here: I thought they shipped first to Europe for one of the earlier preorders in the year. Can't remember if it was the tactic maps or bottom of the ninth. If so based off the link Estelindis posted it never said a sentinels of the multiverse preorder, just the next preorder Gtg did.

Plus knowing the postal service in America at this time of year, sending something to Europe will probably get there faster than sending something to someone 5 blocks away (capitalism at its finest) so there could be a reason.

Will agree though, EU backers deserve clarification on this part. 

Speaking as an interested but unbothered participant, I'm perfectly comfortable with European orders being served first. I mean a few weeks or months late is nothing compared to Space Command (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/58936338/space-command/description).

Thank you for the update. It's good to know where orders stand.

Any chance that Villains, etc. will end up being able to participate in the holiday sale since they're in now?  (Based on previous comments, I doubt it, but I'm hoping that things arriving earlier than anticipated might change that. I'd be happy to place the order and accept the delay in shipping - I can afford it now, but couldn't when the preorder(s) were happening.)

You know what, you're right.  There was something niggling in the back of my mind that I couldn't put a finger on, a sense that some extra scenario was involved that I was forgetting, and that was it.  The original promise was made at a time when the Villains pre-order was opening and we in Europe still didn't have our stuff from the Wrath pre-order, so at the time I assumed the promise would apply to Villains.  Then when they said how they'd handle the maps, my "memory" that the promise was going to apply to Villains didn't fade or get replaced.  I must say, that while I was very happy to get my maps, so doing things that way benefitted me, I tend to think that not everyone who plays SotM plays Tactics, so the most likely way to "repay" the European customers whose Wrath copies were delayed would have been to ship Villains items first and not bother with doing it for the maps.  But hey.

Sorry for making an incorrect criticism, thanks for the information, and happy Christmas.

I could be misremembering, but I don’t think it is as simple as that. For EU orders, in order to save on fees, they ship all EU orders at once to someone who then distributes them. This means that as they are making the orders they need a place to keep everything until every order is done and they can ship out together. Unlike US orders, where they can just ship them as soon as they are done and start clearing away some room to make things easier.

I believe Pydro is correct. As someone who has to ship items on a daily basis I can tell you shipping to Europe is outrageously expensive. So we bundle our shipments and only ship to the EU on Fridays vs America where we ship everyday. We don't do this to save money for our company. We do it because it saves a substantial amount of money for our customers. Yes, believe it or not we pass that savings along. I believe that GTG is trying to do the same thing for their customers.

This is a really unfortunate update for those who believed the "will be in your hands by the end of 2015", which seems to only have been true if it was addressed to the GTG warehouse staff. Especially upsetting is the positioning of "late" pre-order customers, who had no indication when ordering that they were "late", that there had been a previous wave of preorders, or that they would be put so far behind other US preorders that based on this post they may not get their preorders until early February (based on the 5-week estimate). I sincerely hope that we don't see VotM on store shelves before it gets to people who preordered based on being "late" US preorders.

They give the best estimates that they can.  Unfortunately, there are parts of this that GtG has no ability to control which is how long the printer takes and then getting the product to their warehouse.  Considering that it was supposed to ship to them almost at the beginning of November but didn't actually happen until almost the end of that month greatly impacted getting this out.  Since EU preorders likely include stores you will probably see this on shelves at the same as you get them.  However, you would not get any promos or the mini expansions without paying extra for them in addition to VotM. 

They never said "you WILL have this by the end of 2015." They said "we hope to to ship this by the end of 2015."

They're doing what they can. Give them a break.

Actually…

There's your problem right there!  Isn't Craig an EVIL forum overlord?

I can totally forgive things being late if communication is good and we're kept updated.

Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be happening recently.

"Sorry guys, we expected shipments this week but they aren't here yet. We'll let you know when they arrive." would be better than only telling us what's going on when a bunch of people ask what's going on.

I concur with that. I think we're seeing some evidence of growing pains resulting from the GtG/DHMG merger.

I'm fine with the updates we have gotten so far.   Really since about September it has been at the printer and they were waiting for it to come.   I will grant you that I think some projects been slowed down getting to the printer because of the merger with DHMG but I don't think the communication on VotM has been any different compared to other projects. 

I think the communication's been getting steadily worse for a while now, since before the DHMG merger.

I assume it's a result of the increasing number of games in the stable taking up time, but really, how long does it really take to post a short update every few weeks or so? (Especially a "nothing's changed" update...)

The only updates I would like to see more of is the preview/teaser information.  Otherwise what I've seen presented is fine.

A lot of the time they might not have this information.

Like things being on a boat going through customs, that means you don't have any information on when it will arrive, you can't update an arrival time because you don't know.

The communication has been less since they started doing a lot more conventions and since the games started overlapping.

I remember a lot of people saying they didn't care as much about communication, they wanted them working on games.  Now that they are doing that we want the communication.

Well I would still rather have an update that says "nothing new to tell" than radio silence.

There have been quite a few "what's going on with X?" threads recently so I can't be the only one...

There hasn't been total silence from GtG on providing updates.  It may not be occurring as frequently as some people may like but there have been updates posted.  I personally don't want updates every other week when there really isn't any news.  

But if they post "Nothing new" every few weeks there will be another subset of the community asking why are they wasting their time posting that's there's no new info when they should be working on the new games, so why waste the time posting that there's no new information when they're going to get people complaining either way?

They have been posting once a month or 2 updates. Been good enough for me just to keep track. I would argue this isn't radio silence. The only concern I have is I wish they would have made a tweet or something that villains was starting to move. I miss the days where they took a pic of the truck when it showed up and we all cheered

The communication seems fine to me.

I just hope that I won't have to wait as long as last year while reading everyday how other players are having fun with it - including those who didn't preorder and had the game cheaper and faster at the store 10 minutes away from my home. I knew it was probable when I pre-ordered. But I am a little disapointed anyway.

With a litle luck, Villains will be home before the next preorder begins. I like GtG a lot, but I don't trust them for delivering on time (or cheap) for us foreigners. Even the bests have flaws.

My only complaint would not be about communication it would be that they consistently miss the holidays with their major releases. It was nice that they had a sale and had some promo cards, but the real meat of the new products need to be on the shelves before Thanksgiving in order for holiday buyers to make purchases. I shudder to think about the business that they have missed out on over the past few years. 

Because it's reasonable for people to expect communication, even a "no update", and to complain when they're not communicated with. Lack of communication is a consumer issue, and one which consumers are within their rights to complain about. Consumers are entitled to updates when a timeline is extended beyond what was originally promised.

It is not reasonable for people to complain that they're taking 5 minutes to post a "no update" update when they "should" be working on games. Allocation of creative resources is not a consumer issue, and one which consumers are entirely unreasonable to complain about. This is similar to people who complain about authors going to cons instead of writing whatever book their fans have been "waiting forever!!!" for.

Let's not equate the two and say "well people are going to complain either way." Either they won't communicate, and they'll get entirely justified consumer complaints that they're not communicating, or they will communicate, and they'll get people whining because they think that every second not spent posting is "working on games" (these people do not know how game design/production/marketing work). They two are not the same.

There are obviously people for whom the lack of communication is fine. Several of them have posted here. Unfortunately, these people seem to think that because it's fine for them, it is acceptable for everyone. What would be easier? Those people skipping over posts with updates they don't care about? Or those of us who DO expect better communication from a company to somehow read their minds and know what's going on because no update has been posted?

Ooo! Look at what they posted! https://greaterthangames.com/content/villains-of-the-multiverse-is-shipping

It looks so beautiful!

I've seen it in the past with KS where when there are updates saying no progress that people get angry.  I've seen the other end of this where they do only post updates when they have something significant and people get angry because of the silence.  In this case I feel Paul has hit a bit of a middle ground with his updates because some of the statuses don't really change but he isn't bombarding us with a bunch of updates saying nothing has happened.  However, there are still complaints so this didn't even hit a middle ground.   From viewing the forums here and elsewhere the complaints have been growing mostly this month so I imagine anxiousness to get this is reaching a high or patience waiting on this has started to wear out.  

I think we should just take it easy. They have not lied or deceived us. It's a little late than they promised. But not by much. These things happen. Sometimes products are delayed, whether it is holiday issues, other products needing more work, shipping issues, or even personal reasons. 

As Powerhound has said, we have been just itching for some more SotM, and the complaints, and pessimism is probably stemming from that. It's sad that we can't enjoy it now, but it's not the end of the world, and at least we know we ARE getting it. When we do get it, it will be one of, if not THE best way to begin our year.

So, though I would have also preferred a little more communication, I don't hold it against the, and I won't let it sully my view of this company, the game, or the forumites. Well except that one forumite.... I'm kidding, I like you all.

Agreed, and I'm sure in the future this will serve as experience for the future. When the final expansion rolls around, it will be sent to the printer even earlier to budget for more room for error. A lot of the factors that contributed toward a later-than-expected shipment are uncontrollable, like how fast the boat was moving, how many pirates the crew had to fight off, icebergs, narwhals, rips in time-space, etc.

But seriously, I want to give a huge thanks to GTG for all the work they've done in such a short amount of time. All the behind-the-scenes stuff that we're not even aware of, like planning for the future, tons of conventions, stuff like that. They've made something that causes this much anticipation with each and every expansion, and that's worth celebrating.

So, really. Thank you.

As always, thank you for the civil discussion.

Please be careful of tone. For example, 'whiny' is a pejorative opinion, easily taken as an insult. If you can write what you're going to write without using words that can easily be taken as an insult, please do so. If you can't, please reconsider whether or not to write at all.

While I do wish they had better communications in the beginning - silence until June and again in September my issue is I pre-ordered tactics, since it should be delivered in 2015. They made a commitment in February to do this expansions. Since then 3 different kickstarters have started, were funded, and one has been delivered, and New Bedford is at printer, and Spirit island looks to be in front of tactics, since tactics is still in development. In June’s update Tactic box and expansion was going to get intense focus, their words, in late summer and it is still in development. The mark of a good company is fulfilling their commitment in the order that they have made them. It seems the newer games have taken their resources instead of the them focusing on what was promised first. I get the feeling that since they already had gotten the money for tactics, it was placed on a back burner for other projects in order for them to get more money. I am disappointed that tactics will not even be sent to the printer in the year it was promised to be delivered.

I can agree on that front especially when they had the live stream to make a character.  I had hoped it was for Broken City/For Profit but instead a mini expansion for Akash'Bhuta instead.  

Are all you "the communication is fine" people happy that the "Villains is shipping" announcement is essentially a week late, or would you rather have heard it last week when they actually started shipping it?

I'm not usually big on complaining, but that seems like an essential piece of communication to me.

And I totally agree with jmichaelspencer that unwanted updates are easy to skip over, but stuff that they don't tell us is impossible to get for those of us who want more communication.

I think a "Hey we started the shipping process but we won't be working on it anymore until next week because of the holidays" announcement would have sucked, so I would prefer they wait until things were actually getting shipped out before mentioning that they were shipping things.

How much communication do you want?

Weekly updates?  Every other week updates?

i will agree with you to a point. The issue however on the 3 kickstarters is how far in development were they before the kickstarter. New Bedford I believe was on kickstarter before the preorders for sentinels started but failed so they had to tweak a couple of things, but otherwise was done. Spirit island I think I remember hearing about around the time of gen con 2014 and at the time of the Kickstarter, they made it sound like it was done except for artwork. And bottom of the ninth sounds like it was in development before the merger and one of the games that helped lead to the merger. Without seeing a developmental timeline of everything I really don't know.

with that being said will agree with you on the delay of tactics. However, I would then ask why, which could be as simple as they were not that far into development as one would have thought when they made the preorder or something else is holding them up. So as someone who preordered tactics, yes I would like to know more details, but again delays happen in everything and could be as simple as characters not being polished yet and having to redo them slightly.

While I think a biweekly / monthly communication is all right, the update in question is a checklist with limited transparency, which can easily result in unanswered questions. Personally I gravitate to a little more background in the reasons why certain choices were made, especially when I invested in some of their products on that line.

On the other hand, I want those products to be the best they can be, with Tactics being not just a port from the cardgame, but with interesting new characters and mechanics that change the flow of the skirmish games.

Finally, part of what feels kind of iffy to me is that the preorder for Villains and Tactics came as early as it did, before Wrath of the Cosmos had even arrived. While this was considerate to combine the pre-orders for both games from the perspective of shipping to Europe (which I applaud), I sincerely hope that GtG lauches the next combined pre-order(s) a few months after the next wave of Tactics arrives.

This thread was started by Paul on 12/23.  He lists that it was in warehouse and the shipping order so I think you're starting reach a bit Silverleaf.  

See, we'll have to disagree here. I'd vastly prefer "most of it's going out next next week because holidays" than nothing then "oh, by the way, we've already shipped some things but we're only telling you now…" a week later.

This is especially important for those of us who aren't getting shipping notifications, and are at the back of the queue.

Every other week would be ideal, I think, with extras when there's something like a shipping announcement.

If you listen to Chris on the boards alive podcast, he talks about how much time he spent working on spirit island this summer before the kickstarter.  Also when i hear pre-order, and see how the havd already listed the characters in the boxes, i figured it was into play testing as it appears villians was, not still in development. 

As for updating, Craig or Paul are not part of the development team, so they can post updates without taking anytime away from developing the gsme time.

There's a difference between "in the warehouse" and "on its way to customers", as anyone who ordered Wrath from the EU knows all too well. I don't think it's a stretch to want both pieces of information at appropriate times.

Paul stated they were shipping in this thread so yes it is stretch to say that.  

As I've been away a few days a few bits and pieces in no particular order.

I would absolutely refute that any of the Kickstarters were preorders. If the game did not make funding would they have been made? I say to you they would not. I myself believe that that fact is enough to not count them as preorders. On the other hand Villains/Rook City Tactics were coming out no matter the amount of copies ordered through their site, that is a preorder to me.

Also, the shipping was screwed to the EU for Wrath, a Sentinels card game product, how is shipping unrelated product lines making it up to those customers who buy Sentinels card game things?

If you don't count playtesting then yeah I can see how you'd believe that, but as I do count playtesting as a very vital part of developement of a game I absolutely do not agree with that.

I hate >G communication. It is absolutely fantastic when they do release information but the promises they make on the releases of that information is just so out of whack when it comes to the actual timing. Did you know that when the preorder blog first came out that this web page said While a preorder is running, we will post daily updates on week days. ? We didn't get that. I PMed Craig about it and he said "I'm not sure I ever even knew it was there."* Now I don't expect daily updates, I think that promise is unreasonable but if they say they are going to do a thing then by golly I expect them to do a thing or at least to admit when they don't do that thing. And there are other times that I can remember where things have been said and then not done (That is the only concrete example I have a record of to hand), and that more than anything else is why I use the word "hate" in my description of >G communications.

I don't know what else I want to say here in this thread. I guess I will just end with I am dissatisified with the both the timing and the manner this preorder information has been released.

*I attach no blame to Craig for this.

EDIT:

You're highlighting the wrong part of that quote Powerhound_2000 (for my money)

Okay, but what if they can't gaurantee that timeline?

They gave a rough set time, and then when they came back they gave a much more specific time.  I get that people are unhappy, but we saw all their schedules come up wrong for Wrath of the Cosmos and they did the same, they let us know the info they could give us.

Estimates are generated off previous experience, and with the experiences they have had:  

Being at printer means you have no idea when the games will be ready to ship.

Being on a ship to America means you have no idea when the games will be shipped.

Being on a truck that has passed customs on route to headquarters gives you your first real sense of when they will arrive.

Being in the warehouse means 90% of the forces of timing for shipping are under your control.

This is why companies that can afford not to do preorders don't.  They wait until they have enerything under control and ready to go.  They ship to stores before the release date, they don't take preorders until they have everything ready.

That's not where GtG is.  it's still a small operation, so they take preorders before they have much control over the timeline.  Honestly they shouldn't give estimates for delivery of the final product, but it is hard to sell someone something under those conditions.

I love >G. I love the folks in >G. You could call me a pretty big fan of them as people. I count them all as friends. Especially you Craig. 

With that said, I tend to agree with Matchstick and Silver in their general arguments. Communication has been sliding slowly for a long time now*, thats just the fact of the matter. Are there good and defendable reasons for it? I know there are. But lets call it what it is. Whether you are content with things as they are or not, I believe their concerns are more than valid and shouldn't be dismissed so easily.

*I attach all blame to Craig for this.

I don't understand what you're getting at. They would do the exact same thing they would if the 3-5 week estimate is wrong. We would just have more information on what they thought the individual parts of the 3-5 weeks was going to be.

Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm dismissing them.  In general more communication would be nice but I am ok at the same time with the updates we have gotten.

So you want them to give more detail about things they don't have more detail to give?

Or do you want them to spend a bunch of time updating us on every step of the process, instead of actually working on that process?

"We want more information, even if it is wrong!" sounds to me like a huge waste of time.  As much a waste of time as sitting down to calculate when various steps of the process might or might not be done so you can give increased information that is increasingly likely to be incorrect.

I spent 10 years of my life in shipping for different companies, and the stuff people want them to know and communicate is stuff that you either are highly unlikely to know, likely to be inaccurate, or take up time to estimate.  Why would they engage in practices which would make the process more confusing and take time away from what we actually want them to do, which is ship the game.

Would you be okay with more information if it delayed you getting the game by 2 days?  I wouldn't, and I prefer less information to less accurate information.  

They have given us an estimate of 3-5 weeks, unless they are pulling that figure out of their arse (which I doubt) they have a rough idea of how long they think each item on the list is going to going to take. With all of your experience can you explain to a layman like me why giving us this breakdown is so difficult/damaging? I genuinely want to know what I am missing.

My guess is that at this point, they have materials, they are just boxing everything up from the Villians half of the pre-order.  They probably have a person or two working on the backordered villians cards, and most of their team working on the boxing up of Villians preorders, with one or two people printing out shipping labels about as fast as they can to keep up with the people boxing items.  it's hard to break down this into smaller chunks, when they know they can ship X a week, and have 3-4X units to ship (with some slack room built in for printers to die, tape to run out, small plagues, etc.)

I'm annoyed, and disappointed. I love >G and the things they stand for, like many of you I've met both Christopher and Paul (still waiting to collect my "I've met Adam" badge) and they are really lovely people for sure. I appreciate the efforts being made to play things down, and I've always preached calm myself when people shoot off about the company, but the reality is that >G are operating a webstore and failing to meet some of the basic requirements of doing so. Just because we're all super nice and putting up with it doesn't change the situation here. The thing to bear in mind is that this isn't a bunch of people making a knee-jerk reaction over an isolated incident. It's regular long term supporters of the company who are fed up with the persistent problems with shipping and communication, and which really ought to be addressed rather than rebuffed. I don't claim to have the solution, but I certainly believe that there are problems here which are only going to get worse now that the business is bigger and continues to grow.

Villains aside, I still haven't received any news on the order I placed a month ago for the promo groupbuy I'm running. Zip, nada, not even an update on the order status, which is especially galling as there are around fifty people waiting on that order. The minimum expectation of placing an order with an online store, even a small one, is that you are notified when it is processed and again when it is dispatched, with the tracking number attached if there is one. If there is an unexpected delay of more than a few days then you would expect to receive a communication about it, even if it is just an impersonal standard circular. There is no such thing as too much communication or too much detail here. I'm just waiting patiently as I know it will come through eventually, but the way it's being handled is not a good way to run an online business.

I'm also annoyed with this whole thing about who ships first on Villains, even though I'm trying not to be. The international shipping of Wrath was really messed up - we were told that everything had been dispatched when it hadn't. We then couldn't get any clarity on what was going on for a number of weeks, until eventually the truth about problems with the third party came out. We were promised that we would get shipped first the next time to make up for this, except we now find out that another product was used to fulfil this promise, one which the majority of the people who got stuffed on Wrath did not even buy, and now it'll be up to two months including transit time that we have to wait for Villains. It's easy to tell people that it isn't a big deal, and we are putting up with it (mostly with good grace), but it's damn frustrating and we can't just switch off being fed up about it.

Hopefully this thread opens their eyes a bit and they can give folks more updates as that seems to be the bigger consensus even if I don't agree.   I am also surprised that EU shipping isn't happening first since I imagine most folks who preordered Wrath not have been involved in any KS campaigns which shipped.  I really agree on the Xmas promo shipping as I shouldn't need a FedEx account to tell me it's shipping.

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/122312#comment-122312

What point are you trying to make there Pydro? Is a Preorder the same thing as buying Promos/Products from the sale? Even though they have the same first letter I certainly would not equate the two!

if i chose fedex home delivery and my package is right now fedex smart post is that the same shipping method 

I don't understand the point you are trying to make either Pydro, or even the intent. I'm well aware of that post that Paul made. >G need to address the way they operate their online store and all that quote does is prove my point.

It isn't difficult, it takes time and effort.  Things better spent on actually getting the games out, rather than doing work so you can tell people what might be happenning.

GtG isn't a two man show, they can't afford to sit back and complete a project entirely before moving on to the next game.  They can't afford to do that.

They also don't have an executive running the company.  Who is telling Christopher he can't go to PAX because if he doesn't finish that deck this week the game is going to fall behind schedule?  Who is cutting a new project or delaying it because they need to catch up on older stuff?  That is all in the hands of the people who create the games.

Creative people generally don't police themselves very well, but I doubt you are going to see Christopher hire someone to be his boss anytime soon.  That's why you start your own company, so no one can tell you those things.

I don't know what people expect.  We want them to work on the game we are waiting for like it is their only product and life's work, keep schedules like they are a well organized larger company (who also struggle to keep schedules), and communicate like they have a PR department instead of Craig, who while he is in charge of communication also packs boxes, playtests, works conventions and probably does a hundred other little tasks.

Paul is probably your best shot at someone who can gather that information and communicate it, and his status updates are great, but those aren't things he can reliably put out, and they aren't enough to satisfy some of us when he does.

I understand that the preorder gave a date, but that preorder was crowdfunding.  It wasn't advanced sales, where the product is done and ready to be sold, and the only question is can the trucks get the finished product to stores.

Again I go back to Wrath of the Cosmos, they thought they had a timeline, the printer was done early and the product made it back and they shipped it all really early.  There is no way to accurately predict delivery unless you control the product, and once they control the product they start packaging it up and shipping it.  They let us know that the process was starting, they let us know the holidays would interfere with the process, and they let us know when they started shipping.  More than that they are again stepping into things they are less certain about.

Sorry, on my phone and it is a pain to select a few words from different people to quote. I really had no point to make or a side to choose, only provide information. I remembered reading that the packing method that GtG was using did not change the status online.

Hey all, I just got an email from FedEx that my shipment from >G has been “tendered” to them, for an expected delivery by 7 January 2016. (I live in Massachusetts.)

What people expect is a bit more transparency on why certain delays come to pass and why certain choices are made. Paul's updates are a significant improvement from earlier, but they provide a limited transparency, which seems to have been building up with a number of people. For example: we, as "preorderers", would like to know why the product has not been delivered at the time it was expected, while as "crowdfunders" we'd like to know how our money has been reallocated. These are valid questions for any customer, let alone those who invested money. I really like the enthusiasm of the >G team during the preorder campaigns and during the tournaments, but as soon as those are over it generally becomes very quiet and not just relatively.

How to adress these points is up to >G and this topic could well serve as positive criticism. Perhaps, during the time a project is in development, slightly more detailed updates and revealing bits of finalized art and/or mechanics on a regular basis can satisfy some people (this is already being improved on to some extent). Of these, based on the topic so far, I think the most constructive would be the more detailed (transparent) updates.

OK. So learn from that now and apply it for next time. Pack 10 boxes, find out how long that took and next time when you know how many boxes you have to pack multiple it out, add in extra time for delays and unforseen problems at their end and give a very rough estimate of how long it will take for them to pack it all up and send to the shipping company (I had assumed that is what they were doing this time around). I understand that once it leaves their hands that the shipping company and the whims of fate are things they can't control, I'm not asking for that to be factored in when they give us an estimate.

Really? Then they shouldn't market it as a Preorder. I think there would have been a lot fewer sales if it had been clearly marked as "Kickstart our new expansion without using the kickstarter site".

I know that I for one am happier when I back a Kickstarter which gives regular useful updates. And yes, I totally count "well we planned to be shipping this week but the product's not arrived yet so our estimate's definitely out, we're not sure when you'll get it but it will be as soon as possible, sorry" as a useful update, which is a million times better than no update.

Lack of communication is worrying, and I think it's extra worrying for international customers (many of us are paranoid after the EU shipping problem we weren't notified about for weeks last year) simply because it takes so long to get a replacement product if something goes wrong, like if an order is processed incorrectly or gets lost in shipping, or some components are damaged or similar. We're already waiting for weeks after US folks get theirs. Without shipping notifications, how do we know how long should we wait before we assume something's gone wrong?

You guys know how much I love >G and their products, and every single one of the team that I've met has been a joy, but you can add my name to the list of people who aren't happy with the communication right now. And that sucks because I'm usually first in line to defend then but I'm getting more and more reluctant to do that.

That's cool Pydro! It did seem like an odd post from you, so no worries.

I think Bas has the right of it here. We all love >G and are trying to offer some constructive feedback, nobody is bashing Christopher, Paul or Craig, so there is no need for so much defensiveness in this thread. There are problems, mainly with communication, that need to be taken seriously now that the business is growing. Look outside of these forums and opinions about this part of their operations have not been as polite as they are here. There is a post from someone in the votm shipping thread that highlights the problem:

I don't believe that this is the sort of opinion that >G want to foster in their consumers! But it's becoming a common complaint, even from people who have otherwise been ardent supporters of everything they do. That isn't a good sign, and therefore becomes something that Paul ought to look into.

Paul says it all in the post that Pydro quoted: "due to how these orders were processed" and as a result there is inconsistency with some customers getting dispatch notices, and others hear nothing. It's either their systems, working practices, or personnel, but whatever it is they should still do the minimum of either emailing consumers or manually updating order status on their system. With something like the pre-order a blanket communication along the lines of "we are crazy busy and only a small business" is fine, but for regular webstore orders it definitely needs to be better. For additional context, the non-US people who are annoyed about the votm shipping are generally feeling that way not because of having to wait a few extra weeks (we're used to that), but because it feels like the rug has been pulled from underneath us. We all had the distinct impression that the promise that came after Wrath applied to Villains as it was after all the 'next pre-order' that we all bought into. Going last and having to wait a few weeks isn't really a problem, but expecting to go first and then finding out that the queue is in fact, after all this time, facing the other way, is a bit of a shock

Were you in any way deceived into thinking that things you hadn't begun to playtest were finished products ready to ship?  Christopher gave updates on the state of playtesting this summer, and Paul's updates clearly show what they are working on in that regard.  A preorder is simply spending money to reserve a copy before it can be bought.  That is what happened here, preorders can take on many forms.

We didn't get an update post in October, We got one on November 16th (six-week gap during conventions) saying the printer said it would be shipping on the 17th.  Then an update that the ship was delayed to the 20th.  Then a month later we got the December update on the 23rd, saying they were starting shipping, the order of shipments and the expected 3-5 weeks to finish.  Then   on the 28th  we got the blog post update that Villains was now shipping.

We have a 6 week gap over conventions and a one month gap between November and December.

I guess an update in early december that it was on the boat or going through customs could be added in.  I don't see the point in that, but apparently others do.  We got those updates for Wrath, which made sense because things went faster and they had less on their plate at that time.

*carefully sidestepping the ongoing "discussion"*

I pre-ordered pretty early in the initial pre-order period and also have a FedEx account, so here's some data:

12/18 shipping information sent to FedEx

12/29 (just before 8pm) package received at FedEx facility in St Louis

12/29 (just after 10pm) package left above facility

1/7/2016 (by end-of-day) expected delivery in San Jose, California

--Michael

That sounds more like something from the Christmas sale not the VotM and Broken City/For Profit preorders. 

if it helps I have had the shipping label made on the 18th but that is all according to fedex so will have to wait and see

I guess the labels could have been made in preparation for their sorting.

As an EU-based pre-order-er, I'm very disappointed that >G's promise to ship EU orders first to make up for the Wrath debacle didn't apply to Villains: I appreciate they didn't specifically state this would happen, but like a lot of people I guess I just assumed that as the issue was with a SoTM product it would relate to the next SoTM preorder (ie Villains) rather than the next thing they did overall.

That said, i don't really mind when it shows up.. however... as it's a pre-order, my basic expectations are Villains arrives (a) before it hits the shops here and (b) not more than roughly a month or so after US pre-orders are received. Given those are what happened with WotC, and that >G acknowledged it was a mess, I don't think thats too much to ask.

Nope. Christmas sale items were shipped to me via USPS and arrived about 10 days ago.  Also, the weight listed on the FedEx shipping info is consistent with 2 copies of Villains + 1 oversized villain card pack.

I get that already this thread and the other.  I already said in this thread that they must started printing labels as they were sorting things.  

No oversized villain cards in my order

Well I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I am super pissed about this.

The complete cock up that was EU Wrath shipping is happening again. To send out the non-US stuff last is just ludicrous.  They may well have 'made it up to people' by sending some other game out in a different order, but why on Earth would you then revert to the 'screw the EU' model of doing things?  All this tells me is that nothing was learned from last time.

I have no idea when the holiday promos I ordered will arrive.  I have no idea when Villains will be with me.  Santa Guise should have been organised so it was with people before Christmas... its a Christmas themed card!!

I am fully ready for Villains to be availble for me to buy here before my preorder arrives, just as happened before.  If this happens, and I really hope it doesnt, then thats my goodwill gone.  I am complete on this game, I've got every expansion, mini expansion and promo card available.  I love this game, but if its in the stores here before my preorder has arrived then I simply wont bother pre-ordering the final expansion via GtG.  I'll buy it in a store, save a small fortune on shipping and pick up an exclusive stuff off ebay in the fullness of time.

Really makes me sad to be saying this, I'm an easygoing guy and give people the benefit of the doubt more often than I should.  A year ago I was shouting praises about GtG and thier games to anyone who would listen to me.  Even after the Wrath shipping failure I was prepared to let it go.  But seeing that situation repeat is just plain sad.

The problem with the Wrath pre-order wasn't that the international stuff shipped last, it was that they used it to test a new shipping method that is now faster and cheaper for international buyers and things weren't set up in time.  In fact the only reason why the international orders are below US orders on the list is because they most likely ship out all international orders on a Friday rather than trickle them out through the week.

Just one question I am trying to get answered. I have two diffrent orders, one for just villians and the oversized villian cards, and one with villians, the villian cards, and tactics items. Am I going to have to wait until the tactics items complete before the second order ships, seeing how tactics is still at the end game of playtesting?

Th second order containing tactics won't ship until tactics is available.   It was listed here https://greaterthangames.com/content/the-villains-of-the-multiverse-battle-for-broken-city-and-for-profit-preorder-is-live under Shipping section. 

And I suppose there isn’t a way to pay the extra shipping to have them sent seprate now is there?

I do understand delays happen, but my concern is now that having preordered both, it will be several months before I get my copy of VotM while Tactics is finished. I had ordered them together understanding the plan was for them both to be completed at roughly the same time. Now again, delays happen and that is understandable.

You would have to contact GtG to see if things could be changed for shipping.  

While I had hoped they might get both done by the end of 2015 they made it pretty clear VotM and Broken City would be released at least a few months apart.  

I went from excitement when realizing these were being shipped to disappointment when I realized I won't be getting mine ANYTIME soon because it won't who until the Tactics stuff does snf that stuff isn't even at the printer yet.

Just want to say thanks GTG for splitting the shipments because of the delay.  This really makes me feel better about it.  Your awesome.  Will the oversized villain cards be shipped with the villains of the Muliverse preorder,  did not see that part if it was.  Thanks again.

This whole topic is kind of a back and forth about the validity of giving regular updates...but I was curious if we could have another? It's been about 6 months since a State of the Shippings, and I'm curious if we have any headway on certain stuff. I'm particularly excited for my copy of Spirit Island to get here...=)

Thanks in advance!

will have to echo much0gust0 comment. its been a while so just a quick status of where everything is at would be great.

I also just realized that I have yet to see the Tactics expansions.  The last I heard they were due Q4 of 2015, we're now halfway through Q2 2016 and no recent word.

This got posted in January about that https://greaterthangames.com/content/battle-for-broken-city-status

Ah, excellent.  Thank you.  Here's hoping once they tweak it they go back and provide an update for the first set.

Not sure if there as been any new news on this front, but based on the old news shouldn't Spirit Island be arriving within the next few months?

It was heading to the printers early this year, so my assumption is that we would hopefully be getting it sometime after Gencon.

Also the "Season 2" of Tactics (Broken City and For Profit) is slotted for early 2017, around the same time Oblivaeon is scheduled to reach us I think, while the Foil Cards are arriving within the next month for those of us who pre-ordered them.

Am I forgetting anything? This is quite a bit to keep track of I'd imagine. Keep on trucking GTG

We should be getting a new Kickstarter update for Spirit Island a week from tomorrow, assuming that Craig doesn't have problems with posting it again.  The posts so far indicate that finishing up the art has taken a little longer than anticipated, but there is no word on how that will affect final delivery time.

The BackerKit for Spirit Island currently has an expected delivery date of December 2016, which seems plausible.

Thanks for the replies.

December is later than I was hoping for, but I'll take it. So many good things coming out all at once, they've bitten out a lot of stuff.