Any comment from TPTB?

http://www.reddit.com/r/sentinelsmultiverse/comments/2ow91j/flgs_started_selling_wrath_of_the_cosmos_today/

I know that a delay got announced, but that made it sound like stuff wasn't in St Louis yet. It's possible Christopher took things with him for last weekend's demo, but that's had to verify since the redditor didn't identify their FLGS. 

i know I had my copy of Vengeance well in advance of PAX East last year, so I'm skeptical about the veracity of the linked post, but figured I was more likely to get an answer here.

If that's the case then I'd like to know how they got copies for sale before the game creator did.  

TPTB?

The Powers That Be

Ah. Thanks for the explain. I was trying to work out if it was a game store or something.

In this case, it's Christopher, Paul, Adam, maybe Craig.

It's Craig's fault.  All of it.

Only if they gave him a key to the storage room and executive toilet.

They are the same place, right?

I've never been to HQ to find out.

All the above is more or les what I figured. Still, if somebody official wants to go comment on the post, it might fix some hurt feelings.

Here's a store about an hour from me that claims to have WotC, but not the mini-expansions or promos yet: http://wanderingdragon.com/2014/12/09/sentinels-of-the-multiverse-wrath-of-the-cosmos/

If this is true I want to see some pictures of cards and decks. As well as an explanation of what the title deck really is. It should all start posting to the net soon. Oh and yes I will be a bit disappointed. 

Title Deck is a Deck full of Titles.

"Arise Sir Loin of Beef"

Can someone try to get complexity and dificulty numbers?

In regards to Wrath of the Cosmos being sold at a few FLGS, here's what happened. We received a container with the expansion (but no mini expansions or promo cards) and immediately sent off a small amount to some of our retail partners, in anticipation of being able to send out the expansion along with mini expansions and promo cards within a day or two of doing so. Unfortunately, it was not until after doing this that we learned that it would be weeks rather than days. Our options became to either immediately package and mail out 5000 copies of the expansion and then do that again when the rest of the product arrived, thereby doubling our time and money spent, or to get in contact with the retailers and ask them to hold the product that we have sent them until all of our preorder customers have received theirs. Yesterday, we contacted each of the stores we'd shipped Wrath of the Cosmos to and asked them to pull the expansion from their shelves and hold on to them until we sent them the mini-expansions and promos. That way, they will be able to put them back on their shelves at the same time that you'll be getting your copies.

Craig --

Thanks for the explanation. If you're not on Reddit, I'll copy/paste this here on your behalf. If you are, I think this would have more effect on the sour attitude in the linked thread coming from you.

I know it was late when I posted originally, but thanks for being on top of this about as soon as you were back in the office.

Edit: Just saw that Christopher linked here.

Christopher offered to do that, as I don't even have an account on Reddit. What is this reddit thing?

A wretched hive of scum and villainy. But there's a SotM community there, so you may want to have a presence =)

Very cool way to handle the situation. Thanks guys!

So, it's Rook City.

Hmmmmm.

I sure hope your new bosses aren't reading this!

Baby steps. We'll get there. Reddit has had to take a back seat to the forums, our website, our Twitter, our two Facebook pages, YouTube, Google+, LinkedIn, BGG, emails, shipping stuff, and Kickstarter.

It's not like anyone reads Reddit anyway, right?

>_>

<_<

Reddit may not be large in the public consciousness, but it has a reasonably large and devoted following. I only mildly grok how it works. There are 'subreddits' which are categories of interest. One posts a link or some other content into either the main reddit or a subreddit, I think. Reddit, in case it's not clear, is another way to say 'Read it', as in 'I read this and here's my opinion on it'. Reddit is used, generally, as a way to find new, interesting things on the Internet by allowing the crowd's opinions to 'upvote' things they like.

One of the subreddits is /r/boardgames

I also wonder if it's worth keeping an eye on some other social network sites, like Tumblr and Pinterest, to see what may or may not be popping up there.

Also, in case you're not aware, GenCon has forums that I think are reasonably active and might be worth keeping an eye on.

Reddit has, in addition to /r/boardgames, a SotM specific subreddit at /r/sentinelsmultiverse.

Wil Wheaton is a big user/proponent of reddit, if that makes any difference to you. Individual subreddits have their own personalities, but by and large the few site moderators tend to be pretty libertarian.

I was on Reddit once, but there weren't any pictures so I didn't bother reading it.

I use Reddit frequently, and I always get a little excited when SotM subreddit gets a new post!

Read, no.

Post, yes.

Might as well call it Postit. But our favorite yellow sticky note company won't be pleased.

Post-Its come in more colors than just yellow.

Mason got confused when his Post-It was purple and everyone else's was yellow.

It's a tool for managing intricate parts of your system and how it sees-

Oh, wait... Nevermind, I always read "reddit" as "regedit".

I usually copy paste Christopher's announcements as soon as I see them to /r/sentinelsmultiverse and /r/boardgames to hijack some of that sweet sweet karma. Also because I love the company and their games so I don't mind street teaming for them.

wait, you could have sent preorderers the expansion already, but didn't?  i would have welcomed receiving as much of my stuff as (we now know was, in fact) possible.   that… really bums me out.  

They would have to pay shipping twice for every preorder, not to mention do the packing twice.  This isn't a 3-4 month delay, it makes much more sense for them to wait until the rest of the stuff to arrive.

yes, i understood the words i quoted.  however, since i thought i also understood "trust me, we are as upset about it as you are, if not more so" and the "but we commit to getting them to you ASAP" from the delay announcement at https://greaterthangames.com/content/the-villain-infinitor-causes-shipping-delay, maybe i'm wrong there.  Craig's explanation in this thread is appreciated - knowing is better than not knowing, after all - but it does make Christopher's earlier words on the subject seem sorta disingenuous.  :(

I don't see how what you quoted is disingenous, I don't see anything that indicates that they aren't upset about or committed to getting it to us as soon as they have everything.  Since literally every pre order comes with the min expansion and promos, the item is not complete to ship to pre order backers without them

Thanks for disclosure of what is in my opinion a very minor slip-up. I look forward to getting my backside handed to me by new evil-doers soon.

i bet i would have found a way to use what they did send me (two heroes, two environments, four villains) without what they didn't (one hero, one environment, one villain, some variant heroes, some... art or something), so whether the item is complete to ship does not to me seem significant.  

it would have been easier to accept 'part of it got delayed, so we sent that part along later' than it is to accept 'part of it got delayed, so we delayed all of it.  also we didn't explain that until someone noticed something weird at their local game shop'.  there would have been unhappiness in either scenario, and in the one the customers are a little happier and in the other >G spends a little more money.  in the difficult matter of customer satisfaction and concerns about the cost of doing business, in this case they came down on the side of the latter.  and i'm surprised.  

Because they're supposed to pay for shipping twice?  How many pre-orders was that?  How much would that cost?  How well-off do you think >G is?  These are factors they have to take into account.  While as a customer we just think about getting the stuff we ordered.  I think their decision was the wiser one of the available choices.

A little more money?

You should see shipping prices to outside the US (not to mention the man-hours neeeded for an additional round of packaging)!

I think it's also important to remember that we've never been promised a delivery date.  If you're frusterated bacause >G isn't meeting your expectation of a delivery date them please remember that all we've had are generalities, which have been perfectly acceptable.  In fact, here's a snippit from an email I received from >G (emphasis mine) on Nov 17th:

All of the new products are currently in transit to our warehouse, and we expect a mid-December delivery, baring delays due to weather or other issues. Since this is a massive order, it will likely take us a couple of weeks to ship everything out. We hope to have everything shipped before Christmas, but can't guarantee any particular delivery date.

So from a customers point-of-view, it's not really a delay at all because we've never been told a date at which to expect it to be available.  If anything, the few stores that did receive product and might have made it available have done so ahead of the release date.

Here's another example.  Amazon will have pre-order sales of various books/movies/games and offer release date delivery.  How are they able to do this?  Because Amazon gets the product days to weeks before the release date.  Does this mean that when the product arrives on my porch that I can get upset because there was a delay from when Amazon received the product versus when I received it?  No, that'd be absurd.

I for one really appreciate how in-the-know >G lets us be by filling us in on when things ship to them.  They don't have to do this; most businesses don't.  I'm really excited to receive my pre-order copy and it is hard to wait but I know it'll all be worth it.

I would hope most of us are cool enough to just be a bit patient. We're all merely eager fans here; no need to brandish the torches and pitchforks over it. I appreciate the staff keeping us in the loop and even giving us some closure to the much-anticipated Title Deck. Delayed anticipation will make its arrival that much sweeter! :)

Shipping is way expensive, definitely.

I believe there were ~5000 pre-orders. Let's say 500 of those were international (pulling a number out of the air).

4500 x $10 for domestic shipping = $45,000

500 x $40 for international = $20,000

$65k definitely doesn't sound like "a little more money" to me either. Even if it was only $5 for every order that's still $25,000.

thanks for your thoughts.

I am more than happy to wait a little longer in order to get everything that was promised with the order. I have never had a problem when ordering from GtG and I don't consider this my problem. It is the shipper's problem. And GtG is caught up in it trying to get their product.

I think that they are going about this wrong. Christmas comes once a year. If they can get this into their retailers hands then they should! It would not bother me one bit if retailers got the base game with none of the expansions. I Vote they sell what they can as long as they are open and honest with us about it. 

Just my 2 ceunts. 

They do have an obligation to those that pre-ordered.

How would you like it if you ordered something from an FLGS, they got it for you, and then sold it to someone else that came in looking for the item?

Yeah. Honestly, I think they’re handling a sticky situation as well as they can.

That being said, now that it’s been sent to the retailers, although I understand why they asked them to wait to sell, I personally wouldn’t have any issue with them selling them. Doing so will not delay my getting the game, and it will allow others to – it almost seems selfish for me (or any other person who preordered, although I am not judging anyone) to ask them to wait just to prevent someone else from getting it before me.

So, long story short, I would say go ahead and let them sell, but I understand why they have chosen not to, and respect their dedication to the promise made to those of us that preordered.

The retailers that have the item and not selling are respecting GtG's request. Those that aren't are making some money.

I'd be lying if I wasn't a bit bothered by stores selling it before we got our copies. Then again, we're the ones who are getting the promos and mini-expansions before them, so in that respect it seems fair. Even if we also paid a bit more for shipping.

There really isn't a way to resolve this without making someone feel left out. I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

I agree that they have an obligation. If they were delaying our shipment so they could sell to someone else (as in your example) then I would call foul. If they could fill preorders, but decided to ship to vendors instead I would not be happy. However, that is not the case here. They are just trying hard to error on the side of not upsetting anyone. I am just saying if they were open and honest about the whole project there would be few objections. At least I wouldn't object. The key here is being open and honest about the situation. 

What makes you think they haven't been? They have the box. They don't have the small stuff to ship.

I don’t think he’s saying that they haven’t been. I think he’s just saying that he, too, thinks that they are handling it well, but he would be ok with the retailers selling it now that they have it, since doing so won’t change anything.

Yes. Exactly. I vote to let the retailers sell it. II am not sure that I actually have a vote, but I am going to vote anyway. 

I vote not too, a company holds on reputation and upholding their word. If you break of those engagement by making the game accessible to others before getting those preorder on the road you risk pissing off part of your fan base. Say 10% of those are pissed off that means you get 450 people that were fan enough to preorder that risk bad-mouthing your company and may not get on board as easily next time you do a preorder event.

Trust is easier to break than to get back. Seems like a useless risk...

Agreed. I personally don't care at all if people get the expansion before I do (and as a UK person I'm used to getting stuff weeks behind the US people anyway) but it isn't worth the huge outcry that would enevitably arise from hundreds of of customers complaining about retailers selling the expansion before Kickstarter backers have received theirs.

As much as I think that such people can act like spoiled children, it's not worth provoking them. We can wait another couple of weeks or so.