Something appears on the horizon: Sentinel Conflict

If you don't follow the Sentinels of the Multiverse Facebook page, you may want to over the next few days. No reason...

Those of you who have better recall that I do, can you identify the character in the bottom left?

I don't use Facebook.  What are we talking about?

This. 

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k, I'll sit here and hope that I don't have to sign up for some other site to find out about stuff going on with this one.  I'm sure someone will cross-post.

Yeah. I'm in the same boat.

From what I've seen nothin to cross post at the moment craig put up the link to the picture that reveals purple legs and a machine gun… As much as I love pretty much every product that GtG has done the handling of Dev Journal has been very lacking to my taste these last few months. Now I'm usually a sucker for foreshadowing and teasing audience with content, but you'd figure that after 2 months of absolute no developpers journal and no update on bios for Infinitor (BTW the only way to know that name for non playtesters is still to have looked at the preorder image with tiltle deck in it) and Progeny. This corner of a picture falls really flat as far as I'm concerned. Actually was more excited when Braithwhite posted the shadow on the chairman card.

So hopefully we get bios on remaining villains before the game ships…

I think it is about Tactics.  Wrath isn't exactly a secret, there isn't a whole lot of mystery to it.

Either that or it is the mysterious more kid friendly game that has been mentioned.

Although my 6 year old daughter plays Sentinels now, so how much more kid friendly are they gonna get?

Oh you Americans. There's a gun being fired and you suggest it might be a kid-friendly game.

Gotta teach them young.  Otherwise they won't be ready to handle their Personal Thermonuclear Defense Devices.  Nothing like mutually assured destruction to help you sleep soundly at night.

<knocks hole in side of boat>

Me three with Spiff & grysqrl

That gun is very Expatriatte’s gun shaped. Nah, that’s too presumptuous.

You're gonna need a bigger boat.

Even bigger now I'm in it as well ;).

And so am I.

Now we know that we only have to wait two more days.

But who's the guy in the brown pants/boots with the blue cape? Who appears to be flying?

For those not on Facebook, here's a link to the 2nd teaser image.

Some kind of event?

those brown legs and blue cape. . . Grandpa Legacy was my first thought but he doesn't have a cape.

I'd love it to be Tactics and Expat coming to Tactics, but that's her old outfit, unless she still uses that when she isn't Dark Watching.

I hate to be a wet blanket, but teasing really irritates me. Either tell us or don't tell us.

I dunno, for some reason I thought Visionary with the cape. after all except for Legacy she is the only hero to wear a cape and Paul is already in the picture.

The Wraith, Argent Adept, and The Idealist as well.

Wrong colour for the Wraith and Argent Adept, if it is tactics then it's possible it's an older Idealist as well but I'm more inclined to think a Wrath release date teaser.

Doesn't look like any of them (except the new Adept promo, with the wrong color of cape)

No one I can find has brown on brown with a blue cape.

Same here, my original guess was tactics Ra but that wouldn’t mesh with old Expat and Legacy. And that’s not his outfit anyway.

Anyway my hope is that we’re finally getting the letters page.

As much as I'm interested in the letters page thing, all this teasing for a thing we already know about would be a real letdown.

Well that's the problem right there. Take that blanket off, wet wool gets so itchy!

its not a blue cape.  It's Spite's coat/hoodie.  He's not flying, Legacy is hoisting him in the air. 

The brown pants with blue "cape" is Spite. That "cape" is part of his coat.

Urgh, wool is itchy anyway, and my skin is sensitive to lanolin. Stupid itchy sheep.

Upcoming in Tactics, Mr. Fixer starts wearing a cape and spandex.

I'm guessing it's the Rook City expansion for the video game if it has Expatriate and Spite in the picture. Wasn't Spite killed?

And then resurected, and then defeated  It probably is the Rook City expansion, which will be news to anyone who isn't a big follower of these forums.

Hooray! News to me!

Those legs don't look like Spite's legs to me. Doesn't it look like someone is flying deliberately, rather than being held in the air?

What I find interesting, is that just before the images started appearing, the cover image changed. To the art from the Enhanced Edition box.

It's probably not it, but it would be very cool if they were announcing plans to rerelease with new art.

EDIT: And even if it's not, look at the difference between the two Legacy drawings (the hinting one, and the cover). Adam's art has gotten so good!

Don't read too much into the cover image changing on Facebook. That was just a mistake on my part.

Whelp, have to cancel those plans now. Thanks.

I guess you’ll have to make Mecha-Fixer then.

Nahhhh. Just add a pink bow to the top of existing art and call him Mrs. Fixer

No image for today?

I don't think we should worry about these teaser images.  GtG will get distracted and never finish posting the end ones anyway. :P

Right here, guys.

https://fbcdn-photos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-0/10420393_769743736435162_5733624589075437390_n.jpg?oh=6759e3088e07479ec53b154e6637d2d5&oe=55189F2F&gda=1427755942_c616ef7fa8c4c39ef9ef1bf32782e08c

Sentinel Comics? Are they doing an actual comic book series, perhaps?

It's going to be a kickstarter and I'm guessing to make an actual comic.  

Woo! Glad I was wrong

On a side note, I'm glad someone else here loves the Monkey Island series.

That's a funny M if that says comic, it certainly doesn't look like the M in Multiverse in the same font... looks more like the N above it.

Sentinels Con? Held in Stoke?

First word could be "stor" for story, or something else.

I think it says “The story of the Sentinels continues in…”

It might very well be a comic book series, but I really want it to be that game that we saw a picture of the GtG guys and Richard Launius alpha testing forever ago. Maybe it will be a new game that bridges the gap between the card game and Tactics.

The far away picture made it seem like a reimplementation of game Arkham Horror with Sentinels characters. That would certainly be different enough from the card game or Tactics to warrant a whole new game line.

Perhaps they are pushing the system used in tactics even farther and are going to make a Sentinels role playing game. It fits with the cooperative style and could lend to some interesting possibilities. Develop Legacy from an inexperienced hero just starting out in the shadow of his father into the power house that we know and love today. 

I would play it...

Is it just me, or is Revenant in there, next to Sky-Scraper’s elbow?

Certainly possible but like Spite's legs yesterday it's hard to tell.  

I find the current combination of characters to be a little intriguing. Spite and Ex-Pat are at least from the same expansion, but Legacy and Skyscraper are from different sets and different teams, and if the green figure is indeed Revenant than that brings in a villain who is a target in someone else's deck who has no strong connection to the other characters that we're aware of. I'm very interested to know why these specific characters are together.

And why Legacy and Blade appear to be teaming up. Plus there are the Matriarch’s birds in the background. Maybe this IS the Launias game, and they all team up to stop some massive threat.

Sentinels meets Arkham Horror? Shudder. Something I love hideously polluted by something I hate.

It's definitely not you standing next to Sky-Scraper.

Maybe they all get together and play a really great game of hide-and-seek.  That could be fun.

Unless you play against Wraith, she wall-hacks.

it's going to be actual comic books, right?  i mean, that's what we're all thinking..?

Or the kid's game.  Something story-based.

It's hardto imagine the kids game having Spite featured for me. There would need to be some heavy reworking of his character. A drug addicted serial killer isn't exactly kid friendly material. 

Serial Killers stopped only by an Assault Rifle weilding vigilante in a kid's game?

Maybe GtG got NRA sponsorship.

What if, and how cool will it be, if they were.... action figures! 4 points of articulation! Discoloration! Made with real asbestos! 

But action figures will be cool. 

Possibly related? https://twitter.com/GtGAdam/status/542016031552995330

It is the first piece of art since Halloween Adam has posted

Sometimes.... no a lot of times... i hate >G... they're just soooo.... evil. But I love them for it! Is this what love is?

I think I may have figured this out guys. In before they 100% reveal it.

http://www.cantripgames.com/storywar/

Are the font similarities a coincidence?

I think you've unlocked the mystery Foote

Look at the O in Sto at the top of the last image from GTG and then the O from your link in Story War

That would make sense since GtG gave them some space at GenCon 2013.

Yeah, that seems legit

Yeah… as soon as I saw the "Stor" on the graphic with the star in the 'o' it thought "uhg… I hope they're not doing story war… but it loks like they are"

Story war also had some table space on the final day of PAX Aus this year. 

Its good to see them branching into new game types, but I'm with shadowagent. A game like story war is great for some, but it's not for me. Cards against humanity barely works with my gaming group, and that's generally because Aussie have proficiencies in alcohol and vulgarity.

New post is up: new game launching on Kickstarter tomorrow.

Story War: Sentinel Conflict

And looks like you were right! Here is the last picture!

I may back this if there are interesting perks and this functions well on its own without needing to buy the core set of Story War. I've never been a part of a SotM kickstarter, so maybe there's always a first.

Awesome! Story Wars was a game I at one point considered getting, but never did. Now that there appears to be an Sentinel Comic version of it, I am certainly going ot get it!

Oh man my wallet is going to be hurting >_<.

Even if Story War isn't your thing or doesn't sound like it would be, I'd highly urge you all to check out the Kickstarter. There may be another thing or two that may be of interest.

Ah so this game is based on a pre-existing game. Just checked it out and although I love Sentinels of the Multiverse im not much into RP style games but will do my best to still support ^_^.

I think Story War is a great game. If you enjoy spinning tales and beating others, you might love it. It's a very creative game and has great artwork and quality cards. The rules are easy to learn. You can jump right into the game.

I found the game more frustrating than fun the one time I played. I like making stuff up, but not having other people tell me why my ideas are wrong. I like winning, but not telling other people that their ideas are wrong. When I'm making stuff up, I enjoy being whimsical and free to explore my creativity. Having to come up with a better story than others put me into analysis mode instead, which might be ok, but it was in a situation where the way to win was only partly about logic, while also being significantly about persuasion.

IMO, there is essentially nothing to Story War (played it a couple of times) so unless the other things there are very interesting, I'll pass on this.  However, the initial KS did crazy well so I certainly hope GtG gets a lot of money and exposure out of it

Doesn't sound like my sort of game...

...Which I'm actually kind of happy about because Sentinels already takes enough of my money with Multiverse and Tactics.

If I understand the rules correctly why couldn't you just use cards from the original sentinels card game and play? I guess I will need to tune in to find out. I will say that this is a rough time of year to do a kick starter when I am already buying presents. I hate the idea of giving someone a present that will arrive at some unknown point in the future. I would put myself in the skeptical, but hopeful category. After all, they have always gone the extra mile and made great stuff. 

Had a look at that Story War PDF and got as far as "3-8 players", read a bit further to see if there was a two-player variant, couldn't see one, so figure that I'm not gonna be downloading it or getting the Sentinels version.

Meh. Nothing immediately leaps out at me here, and part of the reason I love Sentinels is the story, so that's odd. I will keep an eye on the Kickstarter all the same.

The problem with a slow reveal is that someone might come up with an idea that is better than what is actually announced.

No blog post on the reveal?

This.
I’ll probably get it, just because Sentinels, like I did with BattleCon, GSF, and Pixel Lincoln. Hopefully it will be more like my BattleCon experience, and less like my Pixel Lincoln and GSF experience…

Or at least preferred by an individual. Yeah, I get that. Story Wars isn't my style of thing, but I'm hoping for success for the company, so it's all good.

I really like making up stories and enjoy games that stretch me creatively, but Story War sounds terrible. It seems to basically come down to arguing "yes I do!/ no you don't" until a non-neutral judge gets tired of it and decides a winner. Where's the "game"?

There are a lot of very bad reviews and comments over at BGG.

Unless the SotM version is substantially different from the original I have absolutely no interest in buying or playing it.

Story Wars sounds like a fun game in concept, but it seems that how well it would work and how fun it can be is completely dependent on the group you're playing with. Making the building of a story more cooperative and less competetive might also make the game more enjoyable.

A competitive "Once upon a Time in the Multiverse". Won't fly with my game group, but interesting.

A lot of mixed comments here. I guess at the end of the day that is what kick starter is for. They can test the waters with less risk and if it fails it won't sink the company. If they knew it would be a success the would just offer it was a pre-order. I do worry at such a small company that they will de-focus from the "winners" that they already have.

Just to clarify: I hope and support that >G tries to generate as many different types of games as possible, as this will bring people with different interests together and open up new doors for everybody. Personally, I love story-telling games, even though I am not brilliant at it. That is why I love SotM, as it kind of provides a framework that lets you be in the middle of a comic-book story in which you get to know the different characters. I am curious how it will translate to more free-form games and hope it will bring more people in contact with the wonders of the Multiverse :-).

Agreed! Story Wars does have a decent following, from what I understand - enough that GTG wants to test the waters with a Sentinels version. It will be interesting to see how the Kickstarter does!

In the Venn diagram of "people who like creative storytelling games criticised mainly for not having enough structure" and "people who like co-operative superhero games criticised mainly for having too many rules and effects to keep track of", I wonder how much of a crossover there actually is?

I can see myself getting it for character content if nothing else. We own and enjoy "Once Upon a Time", which is a vaugely similar game, and I owned a horror genre game similar to it in the 1990s or 80s. It might work better for the daughter, who's less into rules than the son.

There's a free version of Story War (I think of it as the "First Taste Free" rules) that can be downloaded and printed. The art is wonderful, but the art is meaningless for the Sentinels version as I hope >G will be doing it for the game. It'll give me an idea of how the game will play.

Going to look at the Kickstarter for sure, because of the possible interesting extras.

yeah, that's a fair point. If I was going to re-skin a storytelling game for the Sentinels universe, I'd maybe do Gloom, with groups of villains committing evil acts until the characters were arrested (instead of dying). I don't like like completely loose structures with player arbitrating, I've never been able to bring Level 99's Infinity Dungeon to the table

That would be a lot of fun, Trying to go out with the most dastardly deeds unthwarted by heroes.

What I really like about GtG is that they are consistently looking to use their success to help games that they like.  It will be interesting to see what kind of crossover this game gets.  I don't think a lot of the forum regulars are going to like this game, because we are by nature more argumentative, and I really can't see myself ever being convinced that Expatriette is losing to anyone with Super Powers.  It just isn't happenning.  So yeah, that kind of involvement in the game might not translate well to Story Wars.

I read a review that compared it to Dixit meets Apples to Apples.  I hate Apples to Apples.

I will likely give this game a shot, because I imagine a lot of story could be involved in a game like this.  And I'll spend money to look at new pictures and flavor text that tell more of the story.

I also think it might work with one of my groups that I rarely game with.

Whenever I hear that someone plays Apples to Apples, I always ask if they have ever tried Dixit. So much better.

I'm getting Dixit for Christmas this year.  I am anticipating a lot of fun.

In my household, we love Apples to Apples as a goofy party game with family, but we've never had any interest in storytelling games (I have a copy of Nanofictionary I got becasue I love Looney Labs, but it's never been played).

That said, if there are some appealing extras, I'll probably kick in to get them and to encorage >G to keep expanding the brand.

To spice up the player interaction within "Once upon a Time", I added 10 custom cards; 5x "Erase", which could nullify/erase the card an opponent played, thus leaving a hole in the story that needed to be filled up by the player (throwing them off guard), and 5x "Replace", which allowed a player to replace a card played by an opponent by one of a similar type from their hand. Worked quite nicely to keep the more shy people involved in the game-aspect, without having to take over the storyline.

One trend that's been bothering me in the tabletop games industry on the whole has been the "retheming" of original games with various IPs, with few changes.  I find that a lot of these--Love Letter is a big offender in my eyes--are really derivative and dont' add much to the experience.

I'm hoping this isn't the case here.  I think it'll take a lot for me to pledge for this one despite my love of SotM.

Have you ever tried Dixit? So much better.

I really hope not. Both tactics and GSF purposely didn't have other incentives outside of those games to help the Kickstarter. Why change now?

I'll second this. I find Apples to Apples and Cards Against Humanity to be incredibly boring. Dixit is in the same category of games, but I find it requires a lot more creative thought. Plus the art is beautiful and creepy.

10 pts to Pydro.

I find Dixit and Apples to Apples to be poles apart; the latter is a great laugh with a non-gaming crowd and has been a dinner party staple of ours for a long time, but I don't think I'll ever play it again with a full on gaming group. I guess it depends on if you try to play it like an actual game, or just shoot for rewarding the funniest suggestions, as it ends up being a very different experience. I like Dixit but personally don't enjoy it when it devolves into single word 'clues' or obscure references designed for only one other person to be able to get, I prefer telling an actual one or two sentence short story as it opens up the possible interpretations of the cards so much more.

In other news, I tried Mysterium recently and I have to say that I much prefer it to Dixit, there seems to be more of a game going on. Definitely worth a look in if you like Dixit.

I love me some Dixit too, great game. It's really good with non-gamers too, my dad really likes it and will definitely request we play at Christmas even though he isn't really good at it.

And it's live! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/story-war-sentinel-conflict-and-cosmic-contest-com

Well, you can either buy a new comic book, the game, or both. I wonder what sort of money this would get without the comic book (easy enought to figure out)?

Pledged $15 for the comic book.

Where are the comic book stretch goals?

Seems like most backers are going for both.

I have to say, it seems an odd combination to me. A proper comic book and a game that's essentially a playground "my dad could beat up your dad" argument? Weird.

Honestly, I'm hugely disappointed. A bunch of cards with Sentinels-flavoured pictures on them. Great, but I'm really not seeing a game here. I know this is not the case, but it looks like a cheap cash grab because fans will buy any old rubbish if it has a picture of Legacy on the cover.

Yeah I'm just pledging for the comic.  The game sounds interesting but I don't see it hitting the table often with my normal gaming group. 

It seems every stretch goal is for the game. Which is dissapointing, but anyone who qualifies for any of the three perks get the stretch goal items too. So, they may be collecting dust for me.

I agree. I mean of the $35, 43% goes to the book, while 57% goes to the game, yet all of the stretch goals are for the game. I know that they need the money to print the book (maybe, they could probably pre-order it), but it does feel like that the book was only added to help fund the game.

I'm a bit surprised that I'm only one of four backers for just the comic.  Must be a decent following for Story Wars and Cantrip games.  

I think this comment might sum it up

Okay, a real comment now, instead of just a shout out. Although the game (to me) doesn't sound that interesting, I'll gladly pay $45 (that includes shipping to Canada) for a 50 page comic book of Sentinels, plus get a game that includes collectible Sentinel artwork! Heck, if the game is fun, that's a bonus for me, lol! Good luck guys! I'm sure you'll make at least the minimum. :)

I'd go in for a PDF of the comic. I try to be conscious of the planet where I can and I can't quite bring myself to get something shipped thousands of miles when an electronic version would be perfectly functional, especially when said shipping costs so much.*

* I know, shipping is expensive because shipping is expensive. Not >G's fault.

We could just ask Devra to make some shipping drones.

I'm one of the few who also has done the book only. Unfortunately, I don't have that many people who live close by to me who are major fans of the game, and so when I do it's SotM all the way.

As much as I want Sentinels Tactics, I don't have the opportunity to use, despite my love for the art!

EDIT: I meant USE not sue

That makes two of us.

After all, the comic has been highly anticipated since the release of the game. I think it's safe to assume that. I even used that as a selling point to my friends who were interested in the universe, not realizing we didn't actually have one yet. I'm happy we get to finally get that.

I've turned the reminder on, but I can't see backing this one.  

You can always sue. It's what makes are legal system great.

Well, there is one book already. This makes two!

I commented about a PDF version and they are thinking about adding it at least. 

Strange that there's no mention of the game on the 'geek (well at least not an obvious one). No game entry, nothing on the main Story War page, no mention in Kickstarter news.

I was looking for it to. Nothing. That is strange.

Be warned and read the fine print. You need to manually include shipping.

Wait 40$ shipping for a comic book?!I paid 25$ for shipping of the hardcover 500 pages book of mage the ascension.

Can i buy the comic outside the kickstarter at later date?

I think this is whole idea is bad for greater than games as a whole. My greatest incentive for funding the tactics was the comic books, and now when i look at them they're really nothing special. I think i will propably not back newer tactics anymore because, well sentinel comics are nothing special if they're added to not so great games just to sell them, you know. What tom vasel said about the story war game? "It's not worth getting", "it's not even a game" .You guys got only the sentinels of multivers, great co-op games, thats the only big brand that makes you succesful, if you tarnish it name by selling it for money - well i don't think it could end well for you guys. Look on aeg and love letter batman, or love letter hobbit, of letters to santa, love letter legend of the five rings, now it's long running joke of the gaming community. You're telling us greater than games are about stories, stories that you have to tell us, and now what, you bundle them with sub-par quality product of another company? It's not from the love of the games, it looks like old-fashioned greed for me. And it doesn't put you in good light, it really doesn't.

The comic looks like the SotM version of Secret Wars, which is super exciting.  However, I can't justify paying 25 bucks for it.  Hopefull enough will be printed that I can get it retail or that a PDF version is created

I agree with this on Story War, but Tactics is not the same.  Tactics is a game many people have been asking for as long as SotM has been around and by most accounts  a very strong game.  The "comic" was a nice extra for the game, not an incentive to get people to buy a subpar game.  

That's pretty much par for shipping for any of their kickstarters.  I don't agree that this is about greed but moreso about a game they believe in.  When you are doing a kickstarter its more about getting an idea if the product is worthwhile or not.  Based on what I'm seeing pledge wise the majority is going for the game and comic.  Like others I do feel that this isn't necessarily a good fit for the Sentinels Universe and personally I think they'd be better off just making a comic series.  

I can see how you can save money by combining the shipping, but if you wait until the comic goes to the store, you could combine the shipping with other SotM products.

Comic only for me. I'm excited to get more story. Story Wars doesn't really interest me, though. I wonder what stretch goals for the comic would even look like. More pages? Additional comics? Better paper?

Most folks are going in for both the comic and the game; I wonder what would have happened if the backers had been overwhelmingly for one or the other.

On today's Dice Tower podcast, Tom gave Sentinel Tactics a warm, but not strong review - he seemed to find it a little limited ("Running around and punching each other in the face"), though still fun.

I wonder what would happen if the book and game weren't combined, and there was only an option for the game.

I'm totally in for the comic. Unfortunatly Story Wars wouldn't see any table time so I have to pass on that.

There will be a lot of great story information in that comic that ties to a bunch of WotC material. It'll be worth it for big SotM fans.

Glad to hear that they're thinking about a PDF version of the comic.  I'll absolutely buy something like that directly from them or purchase a Sentinels comic through Comixology if that's an option.  An actual physical copy doesn't really mean much to me, so this Kickstarter isn't for me (the Story Wars portion of it isn't a draw for me either, though I hope it works out well for the people who'll enjoy it!)

It's sad, but I don't need a comic book and I don't need a game like this.  I can't bring myself to back it.

But who will do the FAQ???

At the moment I'm pledged for both, but I'm like a Druid's couch on a fence about story wars (mildly interested in the art but not interested in the game play, and very comfy :D) I may downgrade it in the coming days. 

Har.  True, the rules ("make stuff up, argue about it, then have someone decide who wins") could need lots of clarification.

They must be getting mixed signals by now. The consensus on this thread seems to be one sided in favor of the comics, but the number of people who support the game is staggering, by looking at the backer numbers.

I can't quite shake the feeling of "I don't get this". Story War just doesn't feel like it fits >G terribly well, and I don't want a company that makes games that I really like (disclaimer: I haven't actually played a full game of GSF so I can't assess that one) to end up associated with inferior products. It looks like that washed up actor guy who's now only appearing in ads for cereal - sure, his early movies were great but you can't help but see him dressed as a blue llama telling you that Cyanide Flakes now have extra vitamins if you watch them.

Slapping Sentinels art on a few cards might be the definition of "pasted-on theme".

I'm not sure why all this is bothering me so much. I guess it's just, I expected more. I've opened my biggest and prettiest Christmas package from my favourite uncle only to find a book on yacht maintenance. In German. With half the pages missing.

Are you talking about the ones included with Tactics, or is there one I'm not aware of?

I share your sentiment. We have passion for the co-op game and don't want it to be watered down, and I feel this may be one of those things where they're just trying to help a lesser-known game out by expanding upon its core set, but unfortunately for those of us who don't share the sentiment for that Story Wars, it doesn't do a whole lot for us, and the only value we see in it is Sentinels–not the Story Wars. Not to mention, I feel this would be something that takes their attention off of the Co-op game.

I don't want to come across as ungrateful, so I'll just throw this out there : for those who love Story Wars, awesome. For those who love Sentinels: more power to you. I just don't see the need for a cross-over.

So like a lot of others on here, I'm underwhelmed with the game. However, like everyone here, I'm digging the comic. I probably won't back it, but I will get it at some point.

Looking at the comic, Parse is the only hero not on the cover. Maybe this is before she started or something, but she's not there. I also compared her to the deity and they only barely look alike, aka not at all, so I'm wondering what's up with that

Many of us have come to our knowledge of GtG through Sentinels of the Multiverse, but I think it's useful to keep in mind that Greater Than Games has always been about building a game company, not just about building on the success of SotM. At first, SotM was the only product and so it had taken the spotlight, but I think we should all be expecting that we will see many different kinds of things from GtGs. 

Also, one of the creators of Story Wars was in the booth next to GtGs at PAX Aus 2013. They became friends and built a business relationship. Knowing that, it seems like a natural step to test the waters to combine the Story of Sentinel Comics with Story Wars and see whether or not there is a market.

Is this particular Kickstarter very exciting to me? Not, really, but I think this is a worthwhile project for the company to try. Like I said, I think Story Wars is a good game – it's just not for me. Am I excited about buying a paper version of the comic and paying for shipping? Not really, but I'll go check out the prices and maybe I'll commit. Assuming that the company is going to do this project at some point, was this the right time, or should they have put something out that's more what their current customers are clamoring for? Well, WCOS is about to ship, Tactics just had its first tournament, and Spirit Island has been announced, so why isn't this the right time? Fans of other Sentinels and co-op games have plenty to chew on.

The point I want to make is that I'm neither surprised/upset that they are putting out a product that's not to my taste nor surprised that they are putting out a Story Wars related product, and I think that inclusion of a comic with Story Wars makes sense and that I appreciate that they've provided a way to get just the comic.

AFTERWORD: I wrote everything above before looking at the Kickstarter itself! Didn't realize they mention meeting Tom at PAX in the Kickstarter description.

Well, Sentinel Conflict will consist of 60 characters, 30 items, and 20 environments.  With current stretch goals, there will be 4 additional cards of some combination of those types, plus 3 objective cards.  Looking at the Multiverse page on the website, there are 23 heroes and 22 villains (counting Vengeance Blade as the same "character" as base Blade) if promos aren't counted, and 14 environments.  WCos plus the preorder bonuses will add 3 heroes, 5 villains, and 3 environments.  That means they only need to have 7 more characters and 3 more environments (there are more than enough items in the game to handle that requirement already) plus a potential 4 choices between those three categories.  They could certainly develop characters and environments (if they don't already have the ideas in place) for both games simultaneously, and there aren't that many that need to be created.

While I have no interest in the Story Wars game itself, having a storytelling game based around conflict between characters using items in environments seems to me like the Sentinels IP would fit in perfectly.  For people who like that style of game, I think the lore behind the Sentinels IP will be a great new theme for them.  As far as >G as a company rather than specifically the creators of SotM, well, we've seen that they're interested in growing the segment of their business that focuses on game publishing, so this is a new step in that direction.

Like I said, it isn't to my tastes, but I think it does make perfectly good sense.

Edit: I think this is where I say something like "Drat, ninja'd by Andy!"

Not interested in the game, but I do want the comic book.  However, the cost for the comic + shipping seems excessive (esp. as I just dropped some $ for the Kvothe charity promo card). I may just wait and see if they have it at convention in the future or if they add a cheaper level to just get a PDF of the comic with no shipping costs.

@arenson9

I agree completely. 

>G are branching out, making new friends and reaching new audiences. I'm also happy that a lot of the fans in this forum, if not the vast majority, have the idea that "It's not for me, but it doens't mean it's ruined forever!'" I do hope this becomes a success, and that they keep branching out, I'll support them anyway I can. 

I think the openning statement of the Kickstarter sums it up best:

We here at Greater Than Games have always been interested in storytelling through playing games, so Story War was the right kind of party game for us!

If you've met Christopher that line probably makes sense to you, if you haven't but you've paid attention to videos and messages from him it probably makes sense as well.

He's a story teller first, and a game designer second.  That he would gravitate towards a game with storytelling as a key mechanic isn't surprising.

I dunno. I don't expect all the Sentinels all the time, certainly there's plenty going on there. Other projects? Sure, great, I'm all up for that.

It's just… this one? A game that gets comments like "I don't know why this was even made" and "not even a game" and even "don't get it, there's not enough there" from the usually-positive Tom Vasel. A game that unless I'm missing something seems to be nothing more than some pictures you're supposed to argue over until someone gives one of you a point.

I just can't figure it out.

Actually I could have understood better if this wasn't a retheme but a new non-Sentinels game which the guys loved and wanted to publish (like Spirit Island), instead of an existing game where they've just added Sentinels art and changed nothing else.*

*Sure, Tactics is kind of a Sentinels-flavoured version of an existing game, but it's changed significantly and deserves to be called a game in its own right.

I have met Christopher, and I know exactly what you mean.

I'm not seeing "storytelling" as the mechanic here though. I'm seeing "argue back and forth until the judge agrees with one team and gives them a point".

I also feel that stories about how a character/character wins (which is essentially what the storytelling element here is) are much less interesting and compelling than those about struggle and adversity and failure and then triumph.

That's why the right group is key.  If judges are willing to award points for arguing people are going to argue.  From what I understand though, it seems the turns go in order, and you will get to counter the story of others, not just with

"No way that hurts Legacy, Legacy is INVINCIBLE!!!"

but with actual story, where you can recover from the attack, or have some awesome interaction after being nearly killed.  Stuff like that.  If you have players that as judges reward storytelling over arguing the game can be really good.  If everyone gets into the arguing or the judges reward arguing then you won't get as much storytelling.

I don't like games with judges, like this or Cards Against Humanity, because it means it's not actually fair.  You could be screwed out of a point because someone knew some in-joke the judge really liked.  If it's not fair, then why am I bothering to play it?

However, I don't mind if lots of other people like those games.

Ok but there is more to characters than their name, and a picture, for example if we do say razor ordnance, we do think about wraith. This is her signature weapon. If someone else also got this weapon. we would be like, what? why? Thinking about wonder woman throwing batarang on cyclops who defended with zatana wand in smallville may be fun, but if we do get actual comic about it we're on level of this:


That level of craziness, just don't fit the multiverse at all. And i am sure there is somewhere on the manual proposition of mixing this version with normal version. Wraith uses unicorn to defend against cat in the boots who atacked her in the bog with grimoire of curses. What?!

Also it's not a like it's even a game. It's a bunch of pictures with description of these pictures. Which could be quite fun, but you know, we already know these characters and these items and these places. Why we would want to get again the same information, if the information itself it's the biggest appeal of the product? Just put some stacks with existing cards and make people draw them and tell stories with them.

It's not like I don't like storytelling or party games, i love them. Once upon a time , yes. Gloom? I love it. Tales of arabian nights? Fantastic game( game like this in sotm? take my money!). Spyfall? I cannot wait to get my copy. But story war is 110 cards for 20$ and that it not really a game , just compare it  to actual game with actual gameplay, for 17$ and 170 cards called once upon a time. Fantastic idea, gameplay and stories. When we do look on story war, It's way too expensive for what is actually in a box. Also if I am not mistaken, there is already storytelling game with superheroes in the market I cannot remember it's name though.

The danger is one of brand equity, both for >G and the Sentinels Line. I remember back growing up when a computer game that was a movie tie-in tended to be shoddy, so after a while, you just avoided them unless they got a good review. As it stands, this game sounds like it won't appeal to many people who are already Sentinels players, may put off gamers who are on the fence about the Sentinels, and I can't see how this would appeal to people who don't know the Sentinels lore (certainly not in the way that people might casually know the Marvel/DC stories). For me, the strength of >G is the storylore that the games themselves delivers, not so much in game design (Both SotM and GSF can both be very heavy on book-keeping, so can be clunky at times), so I'd worry about a game that sounds very weak mechanically further damaging that aspect. I get interested with every announcement from Level99 who are almost the opposite - I couldn't care less for the Indines lore, but the mechanics of the games tend to be rock-solid (A Brad Talton/>G crossover would be EPIC!). Will I still be excited going forwards with a >G release? Maybe, but with a real hint of caution.

That said, I like the niche this game is aimed at, the idea of a Sentinel themed party game definitely appeals, the idea of a story based one also, but not this one. At all.

I have real issues with party games that can be meta-gamed - Cards Against Humanity, Dixit, and I believe Apples to Apples have the winners decided without knowing who will be gaining points (beyond real guess-work of what sort of card a player may play). This one (and games like Say Anything where people write their answers) provides a player the option to select the winner which may be player who they want to win/don't want to win ("You never pick me!" etc), or the one that poses least threat.

As for storytelling games, Gloom is a framework upon which you enhance the game by the storytelling. Once Upon A Time, the story has to fit how you shed cards (if I recall correctly), so there is some structure for less confident people to work with. This one feels way to thin, and too dependant on performance. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm pretty much ruling out being on the kickstarter for this!

That's not really fair on Cards against Humanity, though. In that, you aren't really playing to win. You're really just playing for all the funny things people come up with. It's a game to have fun and laugh, not to try and win.

So is anyone actually excited for this?  All I'm seeing is "This is a horrible idea" or "This isn't for me but best wishes to >G."

To some extent it's not really a game, it's an activity – like most party games. 

The one game I played included both Christopher and Tom, the creator. They are both masters at Story Wars. They come up with stuff quickly and are persuasive.

Outside of the comic I'm not really excited about it

Then why have points or rules?  I play it to have fun too, but there have definitely been times when the person who was declared the winner absolutely did not have the best set of cards out just because he and the judge had been friends so long that they had a secret mind-link of experiences no one else around the table had access to.  That's not much fun.

I don't see why people are freaking out so much about the new game though.  I don't freak out when Pepsi comes out with a flavor I don't like, not sure why anyone here should care if GtG makes a game they don't like.  "Diluting the brand"?  Someone out there will love this.  It's not the end of the world.

^This^

That's pretty much the minutes from any Electronic Arts marketing meeting. Luckily for them, their licences pretty much sell themselves. Games Workshop have slowly been lunching on themselves because they made the mistake of letting an IP (Lord Of The Rings) do their heavy lifting too. Heck, look at the muted enthusiasm for the new Star Wars trailer compared to how excited everyone got over Phantom Menace. Trusting the brand is a big thing

It's one thing to make a great game that simply doesn't appeal to me. It's another to make a crappy game. I think there's some fear that this might be in the second category.

… and I care about them making more great stuff that I like (as well as being super happy, personally, because I love those guys), so I want them to make things that do well and I want them to keep making things that are the things I like rather than expending resources on stuff I don't like.

For me I think it's about expectations. I don't care if Fantasy Flight makes another game that sounds boring to me because I generally don't like FF games and therefore I already expect that. >G mostly make games I like a lot - GOOD games - so I'm disappointed to get something like Story War which doesn't sound like a good game. It's like getting back your star* astrophysics student's final paper back and finding it consists of "I am a fish" written 400 times.

*I'm sorry, I couldn't help it.

At least the community is powering the success of this project through kickstarter before it gets to the finalized stage. I'd be more worried if >G didn't have their fingers on the pulse of the community to see if there's any life at all, before pursuing something new.

I think it's great that we can agree on preserving the heart of the game we all know and love (two, counting Tactics). It's one of the reasons why I chose to remain active here. We have a great community who can discuss an issue diplomatically without getting bent out of shape about it.

I stand by my prevoius points, but as it was mentioned earlier, I think it's GREAT that >G is branching out. I found it quite odd that such an amazing company only had two games, but SotM is constantly expanding. I do question this particular move, and certainly would rather start investing in my own Tactics set at some point, but I forsee the market for this game being the casual party game crowd who also love superheroes.

And I'm aware that this is irrational and it's very hard for me to put this into words (and it's almost certainly unfair), but I feel like I've lost confidence in >G because I no longer have faith in their ability to judge games. If they say in future, "This is a new game and it's awesome!" I'll be thinking, "but you thought Story War was awesome..."

And I never expected to feel that way about >G.

Heh, I lost that at GSF, but I'm sticking around anyway.

Can't comment on GSF myself (only played one or two rounds and had to stop because of time constraints), but yeah. I'll still be here. Sadder, wiser, (more ranty too apparently,) but still here.

I've never encountered any game company where I love (or even like)everything they publish or promote, but that doesn't stop me from doubting their ability to judge games.  It just gives me data points to the types of things they might be evaluating when wanting to bring a game to the market.  I only speak for myself, but I don't lose faith in GtG as publishers or designers just because they like things in games that I don't

I dislike the way the original Story War is frequently played, which is the "I do this"/"No you don't" play style that has been griped about in this very thread. However, playing this game in a "yes, and!" or "yes, however!" way is LOTS of fun. I pledge to do everything I can to communicate how great the gameplay can be in the Sentinel Conflict rulebook.

As for GSF, I happen to really like playing it, still. And I know of many people who do, as well. Not as many as SotM, certainly. And, realistically, I don't think it's as good of a game as SotM. But I'm still proud of it. And I find it a lot of fun. So, no regrets.

I am sorry if this Kickstarter makes any of you lose faith in GTG.

Honestly, I have a gaming group that would really like this game.  I can see how the impromptu story telling genre doesn't appeal to everyone, but there is a large crowd out there that loves games on the more casual side.  Games where there are no points, stats, min-maxing, resource management, or moving pieces; where the entirety of the game stems from using your imagination and where "winning" or "losing" is completely overshadowed by having some laughs with your buddies.

Some of the most gut-busting moments with my gaming group have come from games like "Say Anything" or "Snake Oil" where you're making stuff up and not so much playing the game as you are playing the player by appealing to their interests and sense of humor.  I love those sorts of experiences, and while it's fun to sit down with a dense game of Arkham Horror or a strategic round of 7 Wonders, some nights we just want to sit around and use our wit to create dumb scenarios to laugh about.

Again, I get it; this style of game is not for everyone, and a lot of people likely look in on these games and think "What's the point?"  It's true that the experience definitely relies on to how close you are with your gaming group, what style of humor they have, their general creativity, and everyone's general mood, but I think that these sorts of games have a place at the table.  You certainly need to be willing to accept that there is no clear cut winner or loser, and even if there was, it doesn't matter at all.  What matters is getting some friends gathered around the couch, having some drinks, and laughing your asses off.

So, personally, I like the idea of an imagination-based story game with the Sentinels cherry on top.  That's exactly the sort of thing my gaming group would love to have on the shelf.

On another note, I'm extremely excited for the comic book!

Wheee, this thread's certainly been busy today! I'd not heard of Story War till it was mentioned on here yesterday (or was it this morning...whenever I last replied to this thread, anyway) and while I could potentially be interested in a Sentinels version, the lack of any apparent way of playing it with two players and the usual "zomg shipping" are what's putting me off. I'm not too fussed about comic books but my partner would probably be interested in that, however.

If the 15 USD included shipping, I would have considered going in for the comic, even though that's a lot more than they usually cost. But 25 USD for a single comic? I can't even begin to justify that unless it's a compilation edition.

Try $55 or $65 if you're non-US/Canada. That's not going to happen for me…

Know it's 50 pages. That's more than a typical comic. 

Typical is around 32 pages, no? And those usually cost about 4-5 USD plus tax or shipping. 50 isn't a huge jump from 32, and there's no way a book of that size should cost 10 USD to ship (even if it was hard cover- which, if I understand correctly, this is not). For 25 USD, I have almost enough to subscribe to a Marvel comic for a year- it's 28.96 for most subscriptions according to their website, and that price already includes shipping costs.

I love Sentinels, but this just seems ridiculous.

The margins per comic book are incredibly low for the big companies.  Kickstarter comics tend to be in this price range, which is why they almost always incorporate a PDF version as an option.  (Although that is not always a good idea if you can get physical sales high enough to save costs)

That's just how margins work.  The initial cost to get to the printer is your big expense, once it is being printed each additional print in the run adds a nearly insignificant amount to the overall cost or the run.

Combining these two projects into one Kickstarter is probably knocking the price for each lower.

Wow! A lot of negativity out there. Is Wrath not literally just days away fron shipping? Was Tactics a failure? Do we not expect the Tactics  stretch goals sometime in the spring? Sure not every game is a home run, but that will never happen. >G is finding its way, developing its product line and get more customers. They really put their heart into all this. Did you watch the video of the Tactics tournament? The set and production effort was far beyond what I was expecting. So this game is not for you. OK. More greatness will come. We all have different things we would like to see them make. I am still wishing for a Roleplaying game with old school modules that would bring us deeper into the Multiverse and introduce us to new villains and heroes. Whose to say that won't happen? Tactics could be the combat engine. Perhaps they are working on something even more awesome right now! I personally can't wait to fight a tactics battle on the mobile defense platform. These things take time to develope. Be patient  "Don't Panic!"

Praise the good, condemn the bad. Greater Than Games had done some great work, no one is denying that. But that doens't mean we should just ignore it when they do something wrong. Criticism works both ways, otherwise it doesn't work at all. If someone only praises something, we call them a fanboy. If someone only heckles something, we call them a troll. You need both to be a healthy contributor to the community.

Did you miss where there's a delay on WoCos?

No, it’s a couple weeks from shipping.

I'm pretty sure the negativity isn't directed towards Greater than Games. There was a slow 3 or 4 day build to this announcement and people had all kinds of theories about what was coming, and so the actual announcement was a bit anticlimactic. I think there would be more indifference than negativity if our imaginations hadn't been so enticed.

Your comment makes it sound as if GtG releasing this Kickstarter is a horrible thing just because it's for a style of game you (and some other players) aren't convetionally attracted to.  I agree that criticism is healthy, but what I've seen in this thread can pretty much be equated to "I don't like this style of game, therefore GtG shouldn't be making it at all," and that just leaves me scratching my head.

Yes, narrative games with no clear strategy or rules are not for everyone, but there are a large amount of people that do enjoy them a lot.  Even as someone who occasionally gets a kick out of them, they don't always suit the mood and the entertainment you get is certainly determined by your gaming group.  But I haven't seen a single objective reason as to why this Kickstarter shouldn't exist.  All of the reasons so far have been "Because I don't like it."

By all means, fire all the criticism you have.  As you said, it is important to be a healthy contributor.  But, make sure it's actually criticism and not just pure opinion.  And while it's fine to voice your opinion, be sure to note that not everyone shares that opinion and just because something isn't to your particular taste doesn't mean it's a bad decision.

I worked at a small, greasy spoon coffee shop for about a year and a half.  Before it closed down I played a lot of Sentinels with my friends after hours.  The owner's sons, who were around five and eight, walked up to me one day and asked about the characters.  I told them as much as I could about the story and they were really intrigued.  I haven't kept in touch with them as much as I would like after the shop closed up and I got employed by my FLGS, but I imagine a game like Story War would be great for children.  I'll have to see if my 7 year-old nephew and my 5 year-old niece are interested in this game.

GSF's release was lackluster for me with all of the fiddling and typos, and Tactics is impressive but not my favorite.  BattleCon is awesome but came in an unwieldy, disorganized, and inefficient box for its expansion with Legacy.

Friends, have you actually PLAYED Pixel Lincoln?  You have to shuffle SECTIONS of a deck repeatedly and there are at least three different mechanics for conveying power up items in a sidescrolling Mario-esque world.  It's just my opinion...but if anyone thinks Sentinels Story War is the first instance of >G backing a subpar product, then I'd have to label you "uninformed".  Play Pixel Lincoln and get back to me.

The point is that I'm excited for the opportunity to show kids in my life something I love without expressing the difference between "put into play" and "played", or the differences between damage immunity, reduction, prevention, or redirection.  I'll wait and see what happens with this new Kickstarter, because Pixel Lincoln would've shaken me out of this company if I had a one-strike rule.

Fortunately the sprite art is great in Pixel Lincoln.  Unfortunately that doesn't make it A FUN GAME.

If you think I'm being somewhat off topic when talking about PL, I've at least played it.  I'll give Story Wars a try once before I start impotently shouting at the sky and claiming Greater Than Games have sold their souls to Mammon, the God of filthy lucre and terrible crowdfunded games.

In response to this, I think Tom would say: "This is just my opinion, but that should not break down a game for people who do like it".

>G Obviously has enjoyed the game a lot. Enough for them to think it is a good opportunity to draw new blood, with different game-interests, to the Multiverse. There is nowhere in my mind that I can't morally support them in this, at least.

I was there at PAX Aus last year when the guys got to have a go, and I can tell you they absolutely loved it. We played teams, me and the Cantrip Games guys vs the GTG Guys. And it was great. I enjoyed myself a lot, but at the same time understood that it was not for my gaming group. 

But I would play it with my family. I think they'd enjoy it, and not get overly competitive.

Of course, the fact that all of the Sentinels art is new, and the comic book don't hurt. 

Your comment makes it sound as if GtG releasing this Kickstarter is a horrible thing just because it's for a style of game you (and some other players) aren't convetionally attracted to.  I agree that criticism is healthy, but what I've seen in this thread can pretty much be equated to "I don't like this style of game, therefore GtG shouldn't be making it at all," and that just leaves me scratching my head.

Yes, narrative games with no clear strategy or rules are not for everyone, but there are a large amount of people that do enjoy them a lot.  Even as someone who occasionally gets a kick out of them, they don't always suit the mood and the entertainment you get is certainly determined by your gaming group.  But I haven't seen a single objective reason as to why this Kickstarter shouldn't exist.  All of the reasons so far have been "Because I don't like it."

By all means, fire all the criticism you have.  As you said, it is important to be a healthy contributor.  But, make sure it's actually criticism and not just pure opinion.  And while it's fine to voice your opinion, be sure to note that not everyone shares that opinion and just because something isn't to your particular taste doesn't mean it's a bad decision.

My criticism wasn't even about the game. All I said about the game was that it wasn't my style of game, and was actually releived that it wasn't my sort of game, since that means I don't have a third Sentinels game to keep track of. I have never stated that they shouldn't make the game or that they shouldn't make the Kickstarter. You can see that post here, it hasn't even been edited: https://greaterthangames.com/comment/89703#comment-89703

My criticism was directed at the fact that they expect people to pay 25 USD if they want just the comic (and even more if they live outside of US and Canada), which seems like a ridiculously high price for so little content, to say nothing of the fact that shipping is the same for just the comic as it is if you buy the game and the comic together… Ten dollars shipping for a small game is reasonable. Ten dollars shipping for a comic book? Not so much.

Now if you want criticism to pertain specifically to the game itself, I can say this: What can I do with Sentinels Story War that I can't do with the cards from Sentinels of the Multiverse? If I want to do an improv roleplaying game with my group, I can just as easily pass out character, equipment, and environment cards from SotM itself. All I'd have to do is get non-transparent card sleeves so that cards with different backs can be shuffled together… Which would be far cheaper than buying a separate game.

On an unrelated note, these forums seem to eat linebreaks when quoting…

The forums does eat the linebreaks, which is confusing.

Another thing that's confusing to me: Maybe I'm just used to crazy shipping prices, living where I am, but the cost for the comic and shipping alone seems really cheap to me? I've done Kickstarters for other things, and I was really surprised and impressed to see shipping to Australia being listed at $10. When I Kickstart anything, I'm usually prepared to pay equal cost in item and shipping, if it's a physical item. And comics are kind of expensive here, even those from larger companies.

Just lurking here, but point to be made:
We’re mostly serious gamers here. Even our ‘casual’ gamers are more seriouus than most people in this world.

And this is clearly stated as a party game. Something to introduce your grandma to sentinels with.

Oh and Christopher, institute the improv “Yes, and” rule to the rule book and it will go fantastic

I think the issue people seem to have isn’t so much a dislike of casual party storytelling games, even ones with little structure, it’s more that most evidence (or experience for some) suggests that Story War just isn’t a very good example. It has almost literally no structure, it’s just an excuse to get a bunch of cards together (which anyone interested in this will already have ones you can use just as functionally, from Sentinels) and improv. Why do you need to buy a, potentially substandard, game to do that?
As has been mentioned there are some highly rated storytelling based games out there, Cards Against Humanity, Gloom, Once Upon a Time, Dixit, Aye Dark Overlord… Story War just doesn’t seem to be one of them. It seems like a glorified version of kids playing at if Batman could beat Superman, with a judge added to decide who said it better because there’s nothing in the mechanics to decide that otherwise.

Based on how badly rated Story War itself is, and on bgg it isn’t rated well, this is something to make people wary. I think it is a worry of quality and not really as some have suggested a “this sort of thing doesn’t appeal to me”. Only time and reviews can tell for that, if the original game can be improved upon.

As a total aside to the conversation here, I want to congratulate everyone on having a good, solid discussion without it breaking down to name calling and other less productive means. I'm proud of you all.

You're a poop head!

Fixed that right up

I think part of the problem I havce is that I have no idea who I would play this with. Sotry War has some basic fantasy types that anyone knows and is familiar with. WOuld I want to play this with someone who doesn't know about SotM? Not really. Why would I try to come up with something that fits the character, while something else comes up with whatever they want.

Would I play this with someone familiar with Sotm? No, never. GtG decided long ago how to hide the actual stroy. This means that everyone is on a different level with regards to what they actually know. Sure, you know the deck, but do you know the flavor text, art, online bio, and the all hints giving throughout the year? Probably not. I am not looking for an argument about whether AA can fly or not, how powerful is Vis's telekenises, can Into the Stratosphere really work on Channel the Eclipse (does this make sense) or on hero cards, using powers more often, etc.

I get that we have the same characters to re-theme the game, but I am not sure if specific characters, as opposed to general categories, ruins it. Especially, when most people have different amount of knowledge about what the characters can really do. Arguing about whether my version of a witch can do something seems very different than whether AZ can.

Just something I am going to look for.

As Christopher pointed out, it's not about having an argument.

Seriously poop head Craig, way to ruin everything.

Tactics got a lot of negativity, as did GSF.

Tactics got flak for not having Co-op, for not having painted mini's, then for the cost of painted minis when they included them.

GSF is too fiddly and not about comic book characters.

People are going to complain shen Spirit Island comes out too.

The reason is none of these games are SotM.  Every other game they make is going to be missing some key element that people love about the card game.  Tactics lost the co-op crowd, GSF lost the comic book fans and casual gamers, Story Wars is a party game, which means it isn't much of a game at all.

We constantly hear "I like what GtG does, but I don't like this."

What you are probably saying is, "I love Sentinels of the Multiverse, but I don't love this."

I don't like GSF as much because I hate deckbuilding.  (Although it is my favorite deckbuilding game ever)

I love Tactics, because that is exactly my style of game, even more "Me" than SotM.

I can look at Story Wars and know right now that I would love to play it with the right group, and I think I have a group that will work for it, so I will probably buy it.  I know I want the comic.

None of them are SotM.  That's okay.  There is always room for niche games, not every game needs to be a phenomenal success.  There is room for Sentinels characters to be a promo in other games.

There is also room for this rebrand of Story Wars.  Because while a lot of us have no interest in it, some of us will play it and really enjoy it.

Some Story Wars fans will get into SotM because of it, and find they like SotM.

Some SotM fans will play it and find out they like Story Wars.

The rest of us will go on with our lives.

I think you hit the nail on the head. The game isn't for everyone, and it does have a specific audience. But, I'm actually happy how excited we all got!

Nothing is more disappointing then having a company/organization/person say "I have a surprise for y'all!" and people not giving a crud. I admit, I was a little disappointed to see it was Story War, not because I thought it was a bad idea, but because I didn't get that awesome dream item I wanted. And I just feel a little silly. 

I also wanted to show appreciation, and give my thanks to everyone here for NOT resolving to "You didn't give me what I want so now I'm going to ban/ignore >G and give away all my stuff for ruining it forever!" We are essentially giving our opinions strongly, but there is no hate, no over-the-top shenanigans, or feelings of betrayal.

And as always, it seems that the biggest concern and nuisance is the shipping to places across bodies of water. And that's not their fault; blame the post-office, and customs.

In short, let's not be so pessimistic, and let's try and promote this to the people who we know will enjoy it, and just help support a company that has brought us nothing but joy, fun, and created a family.

I love you all. Well, there is one of you, and you know who you are shakes fist

Whether or not it is an actual "arguement" doesn't matter as much as the frustration that I think I will have. A says a great story that has nothing to do with the actual characters. I say one that is much closer to what can happen. Judge chooses A (because he doesn't know/care about the actual characters). I get frustrated. I know the lore and A doesn't, so judge picks me, A gets frustrated. Of course, I could just ignore it and have fun, but then why have a Sentinels version.

The best thing to do is disconnect from the structure of the other sentinels games and get creative.

If Wraith is stuck in a tight spot and all she has is the Grimoire of Curses that somehow survived and ended up in Insula Primalis (because comics) she is going to use it, you have to dicide how she is going to use it, and then give a great story about how she finds it, and in desperation uses it to turn the tide of the fight.  Who cares what deck it would be in for the other games?

What does the Grimoire of curses do?  We can read the game text and see the result in the card game for it.  But it doesn't just deal infernal damage, that is how the book's power is quantified into the game.  In this game that is something you would explore creatively.

I personally hope that enough of us buy the game that we can run Story Wars Sentinels on the forums.  Because That Would Be Awesome.

I honestly can't think of a better group to tell awesome stories of battles within the Multiverse where heroes have the wrong items and everything is in chaos.

I am really excited for that.

I am always wary when someone has to tell you how to play the game in order to have fun.

I am totally getting and also up for joining in on the forum games!

What I meant to say was to disconnect from the structure of the other Sentinels games, sorry it was written poorly.

This. Definitley this. 

My frustration has nothing to do with it being a bad/good game. It has everything to do with how SotM was handled, and how this is being handled. GtG made a decision about how they wanted to released the story and lore for these characters. Many of us look at all the pictures, flavor text, and come here every day because we love the lore and characters. Nothing wrong with this.

However, SotM does have a specific target audience, an audience that doesn't mesh with their other Multiverse products, and this is what is frustrating me. The choice not to give out the story outright, but to add in more hints in products that won't appeal to the SotM gamer. I have Tactics just for the added story elements that I didn't want to miss. It rarely gets played because of the groups I am in. Tactics isn't so bad becuase of the 5-year gap, but there is still a lot of info.

This trend seems to be going with Story War. I don't think It will get played a lot, since not everyone is a Sentinels fan, and I have better party games. Yet, if I want to know more of the story that has been hidden and secreted away, I have to buy a product I might never use. This is what is frustrating me.

WIth SotM, I have everything, not just because I want to support the company or being a completionist, but because I want to see the entire story that GtG wants to tell. In recent months, my resolve to do this have lessened drastically. Besides picking up Tactics, I then had to pick up the Video game to get a card, donate to a worthy cause to get another, and now pick up a new game I might never play.

I will admit that a lot of this is just me, and how I want everything, but the frustation is still there. GtG has chosen its style of storytelling, and how to distribute the story. For the first few years this worked fine, and everything was isolated to SotM the card game, but we still don't know the story, and we are needing more and more ways to get tidbits.

If you take a look at Tom's video, he doesn't say that it is a bad game. He says it is a story-telling game with its inherent strengths and weaknesses. However, he does say that there is no point in getting the game. You can have a better and more creative experience by giving everyone an index card and writing down whatever characters they want. There simply isn't enough in the box to warrant a purchase. 

That being said, you could play Sentinel Conflicts right now using the cards that you have (just get opaque sleeves). Even if you didn't want to mix the cards, you could just order some form the store and play now, instead of in June. The only thing you are missing is the art, and this is what frustrates me. I could get the experience of the game right now, but I would be missing the art. Essentially, that is all the game has for me: more art and story. Now, If I want to know that story, I have to buy more stuff that I don't need.

So, what does GtG do? They finally give us the story straight out, but couple it with the game. I actually love this dichotomoy. The KS has a product that finally, actually, tells the official story with a product that encourages you to do what you want. The book is $25, but you can save on shipping if you get both. Add on to this that there are no stretch goals for the books, and it feels like that GtG finally gives us what we want, in order to use it for something we might not. (I am not saying this is what is being done, but it is how it feels).

Now, if the book was being advertised as a way to learn some basic story for people new to the Multiverse and want to play Story War, I get that, I would still be upset, but I get it. However, there is nothing that indicates this is their approach. Which forces me to ask the question: who is this game for?

As I mentioned above, you have a lot easier time creating stories with the Story War base game, because most people know about those characters. If someone has no idea about the Multiverse characters, what exactly will they do? More importantly, will someone who has knowledge of the game want to play with them? I hope so, but I think it is a harder sell. It definitely feels like the game is being targeted to players of SotM, but therein lies the problem.

I hope the KS does well, and it looks like it will fund. However, the hardcore SotM fans (and GtG fans) are not entirely onboard. Both here and on BGG, the comments have been very negative. Nothing wrong with branching out and getting more people, but it shouldn't be at the cost of the current fans.

I think GtG is faced with a challenging dichotomy: Wanting to build on the success of the Sentinel Comics story, but wanting to branch out to other games. People interested in the story but not in the other games are left with a conflict: Not getting the additional story or paying for a game they don't want.

The Sentinel Conflict Kickstarter addresses this to a great extent by making the comic itself individually purchasable, but it leaves me wondering what I'd be missing by not having the cards from the game. On the other hand, if I buy the game just to make sure I don't miss any interesting story, will there actually be anything new in the cards or not?

I find the cost of the comic plus shipping to be possibly higher than I'm willing to pay. I'm hopeful that a PDF version for which I don't need to pay shipping would bring that down to a price I'm happy with.

I really, really hate it when I write a long post, and someone else expressed the idea much better in fewer words.

I do think these all emotions and discussions are out of love. We do love sentinels, and creators of it, and that why we're here on this forum. We do want to feel like our voice matter, and will be reflected in future of the company. It's out of fear that today we got story wars, what do we get tommorow? Love letters from multiverse? From disappointment that we dreamt big and expected big from this love and instead we got something just only mediocre according to the popular opinion. Voice in our mind whispering that time they put into this could be put into something that we could like way more.

My opinion is simple, I don't see it being good for greater than games at all. There are some people who are collectors who like to collect anything from multiverse franchise and now you can lose some of these people because that kind of collecting now is not only about collecting really good stuff but also collecting something less refined and less good. There are other things that people are waiting for, rpg, new chapter in tactics, comic - people asking for these things, and these pleas should be adressed. If this would be kickstarter for a comic, or even series for them with the addon of storyteling game ,I think this kickstarter would be way more succesful that it is right now. Why, because thats what people wanted and asked for in the first place. I just don't see why it's other way instead and story telling game is in frontlight.

I was thinking that I wouldn't pick up Story War: Sentinel Conflict because I'm not a fan of storytelling games. Humor games? Sure! Party games? Sure! It's the competitive storytelling mechanic that turns me off, ususally becasue there are one or two people in my group who are just so much better at it than everyone else that there's little point in playing.

HOWEVER...

It occured to me that if I love the Sentinels characters and art, I could just buy Story War: Sentinel Conflict for the cards themselves and then re-purpose them to create something else all together...

Maybe I write some Att/Def numbers on the cards and use them for my own custom deck-building or M:tG style game

Maybe I turn them into Sentinels Fluxx, Sentinels Munchkin, or what the heck... Sentinels Love Letter :-)

or maybe I cut them up (the horror!) and turn them into an art project like a custom Sentinels playmat

Perhaps your post gave them the insight they needed to be able to express it in fewer words.  

I honestly think the "story" in the Story Wars will be what is provided in the comic - I don't think we're looking at anything more than that. I'm obviously just going on my gut, here, but I don't think they've decided to make this a different point in time (as they did with Tactics), but are just setting Story Wars in the middle of the SotM timeline.

Interestingly, this might be the only way I would play Story Wars. I just can't do improv well, but give me time to craft a post, I might actually be up for that.

(As much time as it took to answer some of them, I really miss the old Ask Another Forumite thread… )

How is there story in the new game?  The cards just have basic descriptions of the characters, items, and environments.  Is the story in the comic, or the game?

First off, Legacy isn't even officially part of the expansion. He was a promo, a bonus. Nothing more. And the box isn't disorganized. The divider is great for organizing everything. Granted, it's best to add your own envelopes for some of the decks, and if you want to fit everything you need to use the War box too, but Sentinels has the same issue; you need multiple boxes to hold everything. The box is fine for organization. That's a user error.

Yes, I HAVE played Pixel Lincoln. I own it, and the expansion. You have to shuffle sections of the deck once each, but that's exactly what you have to do for other games, like Pandemic. That seems like a pretty arbitrary complaint, and it definitely doesn't make the game bad. There are 3 different ways of using items. You can spend them for gold, or Equip them for their ability, which will do different things depending on the card. It's no different from Ascension or Thunderstone. You can also discard them for a suit ability, but this comes up so rarely it's basically an emergency thing.

Gameplay wise, it's a solid game. I was a bit disappointed by the lack of variety between the different items and enemies, but they fixed that with the expansion. It's not the BEST game, but I wouldn't call it sub-par.

See, when you say things like "if you don't think this is bad, then you are uninformed," you are saying that your opinion is the only right one, and that anyone who disagrees just doesn't KNOW, and that is a very elitist and condescending thing to say.

There have been a million posts since the thing I want to respond to so I'm not going to do that directly, but I wanted to clarify that I actually really like storytelling games. My favourite RPGs are narrative ones (Fate and Fiasco are notable there and I had a great time playing Lindisfarne recently) even though I'm not very good at storytelling myself.

My problem was not with >G releasing a storytelling game. I love that idea and think it's a good fit for the company. I just think this storytelling game doesn't look like it's a good one.

Anyone else reminded of that thread a while back discussing whether the Prime Wardens would beat the Freedom Four?

I think you're taking what he said and stretching it a bit out of proportion. There are tons of games I haven't played that I have an opinion on. That doesn't invalidate my opinion, but it makes my opinon very uninformed. Becoming informed allows others to form a better placed opinion on something.

I have yet to play story wars, so I can't know for sure, but here are my thoughts:

1.  If the judge's job is to decide who would win the fight then the game sucks.  I assume it isn't that simple, because frankly if I was the judge and people were arguing Gimli vs. Legolas, It wouldn't be a contest because I have a brain, which means I am capable of knowing that Gimli would trash that arrogant Elf Prince 100 out of 100 times.  No argument to the contrary would hold any weight, because it is obviously wrong.  Any setting, any weapons, Gimli wins.  Playing that match with me as judge would be pointless, award points, move on.  I assume that the actual telling of the story is more important to deciding who gets points.

2.  The fun we had debating Prime Wardens vs. Freedom Four was limited because we lacked structure and a judge.  This "game" is designed to give that kind of structure, and introduce randomness into the equation.  Let's line up the two sides in story wars and have at it, we'll get an environment, limited items to call on (although I assume some heroes such as Expat or Wraith don't start unarmed) and who wins depends on what side spins a better story.

3.  Being a good judge is going to be key to this game, otherwise it won't really work.  Much like other party games, it is only a format to turn things we normally joke around and talk about into a fun and structured game.

4.  I honestly don't think other storytelling games would work as well with Sentinels as his game.  It is hard to make a story telling game about a story that already exists.

At the moment to me it feels too niche for a party game (exept geeknights once or twice a year) and I would probably only enjoy playing with other forumites as I would enjoy players to have minimum info on the characters, then again multiverse means anything could be canon, as long as there are enough universes to justify a commie version of AZ bringing the cold in cold war against the mighty cloning Freedom (Imagine Proletariat in red white and blue). After all, Freedom might have to strain his Psych but imagine a whole squad of trained good old Joe's to try and keep Jack Frost on ice for good...

Heck, I think I'll start a tell us your dream alternate Universe (something akin to marvel's What ifs?) in the sentinels comics forum.

Quick! Head count of everyone who is ordering Sentinel Conflict and will be joining in the forum games!

I am!

I don't understand why you would need Sentinel Conflict to argue about who would win a fight on the forum.  We already know all the characters, items, and locations in the game.  Can't you just make it up without buying the game?  You could be doing this right now.

McBehrer, I’m definitely not trying to say that I’m right and everyone else is wrong. My point is that > G has included their characters in plenty of games that didn’t fit the SotM mold. The Freedom Five in PL were little more than generic NPCs with a light SotM coat of paint added to them. I personally didn’t care for it, but more importantly it fits a lot of issues expressed here. Vapid Sentinels story progression, skin deep relation to the Sentinels brand, and mechanics that are incredibly simple compared to their other games. So when I say that people are uninformed when they’re saying “Oh man, folks! This is terrible! Sentinels got put in a game that got mundane reviews and Tom Vassel said was lame. We gotta DO SOMETHING!” I think they may be engaging in histrionics and blocking out the myriad of criticism > G has already received about a few of their Sentinels dalliances with other companies. I don’t think this is the end of > G integrity. I think this game is other peoples’ Pixel Lincoln, and I suggest that before they renounce SotM over this they should probably just chill and vote with their dollars.

I’m not trying to be vitriolic or rude. But this seems like a very subjective argument, so I argued from a point of subjectivity.

And Brad straight up told me that he couldn’t fit everything from the Devastation Kickstarter in his box comfortably and recommended storing them in a toolbox. You should probably inform the creator of the game of his “user error” so he can explain it to everybody in a youtube video about how they need to buy a $60 insert from another kickstarter or invest in tons of bags to store the game. I can fit Sentinels in the boxes they came in and they’re sleeved in Mayday premiums. Even if I’m blowing things out of proportion that is a massive difference in storage capabilities between SotM and BattleCon. They’re both great games, regardless.

Keep it cool, folks.

Sorry Rabit! And sorry McBehrer. Wasn’t trying to be a chump or anything. Pulling out a private conversation with the creator of BattleCon was a bit of a sucker punch, regardless of how much weight it does or doesn’t carry in the conversation. Please don’t mistake my frustrations with the packaging for frustrations with BattleCon as a game. It is super dope!

I'm totally with you on not seeing the point of Story War.

Same as I don't see the point of Telestrations when you can do exactly the same thing with pen and paper for free.

Well, to be fair, if you were ambitious enough, you could say that about any game.  Hell, even chess could be played by ripping up scraps of paper and writing Pawn, Rook, etc. on them (and I've done it before too when we couldn't find any pieces for our chess board).  Plenty of card games and social games like The Resistance can be completely replaced by a pen and paper.  But that doesn't mean the components are pointless; for a lot of people they add a level of immersion or exist to make tracking/playing a lot easier.

I see what you're saying, though again, the same argument could be said about nearly every social game on the market.

But I digress.

@ phantaskippy and Ronway:  I'm also backing this game and am extremely excited to get some forum games going!

I also see a lot of commenters who likely haven't even played a game of Story War, yet are basing its merits purely on third party reviews and heresay, when it is very much a subjective game.  Having played (and enjoyed) Story War, I'd like to wildly and somewhat inaccurately compare it to D&D.  Any D&D lovers out there will know that the story telling on top of having a fair and compelling DM will absolutely make or break the experience.  And D&D is a game where "rules" exist more as guidelines, and it really comes down to the imagination of the player when deciding where the game can and can't go.

Story War absolutely hinges on the creativity of its players, and just the same with D&D, when you get the right group of gamers together, it can be an insanely fun and immersive experience (albeit a bit silly).  However, with the wrong group, it definitely falls flat.  But this is nothing new to social games; when the most active part of the game is the players' wit and imagination, it shouldn't be a surprise that a group lacking those things won't find it to be a worthwhile experience.

I don't know; I guess I just see a lot of snap judgements and a lot of people thinking that a game shouldn't exist simply because it isn't their idea of fun.  Even if none of you back Sentinel Conflict, I hope that someday down the line you'll at least try Story War (or other similar social games) with an open minded group.  You'd be surprised with the experiences you could have.  For me, some of the experiences from social games have been the highlights of my year with my friends.

Thanks for the feedback everyone, whether you like the idea of Sentinel Conflict or not! I expected that there would be a thread like this when we launched the Kickstarter, and I am glad that it has proceeded in a civil manner :) Here are my answers to some of the questions that came up in this thread:

Q) Who is "Story War: Sentinel Conflict" for?

A) It is for:

*Fans of party/story telling games who want to play one with comic book heroes.

*Fans of Sentinel Comics who want to play a story telling game with characters they love.

*People with casual/non-gamer friends who they want to introduce to Sentinel Comics and eventually convince to play SotM or Tactics.

*Parents who want to introduce Sentinel Comics to their young children.

*Fans of Sentinel Comics who really want a bunch of small art prints with new character art.

Q) Why is GTG splitting up the story of Sentinel Comics across multiple different games?

A) We love the world of Sentinel Comics, and believe that there are a few different types of game that work very well with the stories of that universe and, if possible, we would like to make those games and through them tell more stories from Sentinel Comics. Each game is going to appeal to a different core audience, though there will be a lot of overlap.

However, we realize that people are also invested in the story and will want to stay up to date with it. That was one of the motivating factors behind setting Tactics at a different point in the Sentinel Comics timeline; the stories of SotM and Tactics are related, but distinct. With Sentinel Conflict, the game does not provide critical advancement to either story, or contain its own story arc. Instead, it acts as an introduction to the characters and world of Sentinel Comics. We don't want anyone to feel like they have to buy it just for the story.

Q) Why did GTG choose Story War as the basis for this party/story telling game?

A) We have played a number of party/story telling games with the "subjectivity mechanic" (popular examples including Apples to Apples and Cards Against Humanity), and we believe that Story War is the best of the genre. (On an amusing note, the back of the original Story War box actually has a quote from Max Tempkin, creator of Cards Against Humanity, saying that Story War is better than CAH). In addition, we felt that the characters, locations, and items format translated very well to the Sentinel Comics universe.

I think I'm an experienced enough gamer to be able to assess a game by reading the rules and both positive and negative reviews. My usual game-choosing technique involves comparing reviews of different people and looking for common complaints then assessing whether I consider those negatives to actually matter to me. The common complaints for this game raise my "don't bother" flags because I know I will also dislike those things, and that's pretty much the point of reviews, right?

Suggesting you can't assess a game without playing it seems somewhat off to me. I'm sure most people would know they don't much care for Punch Yourself Hard In The Face without actually punching themselves in the face.

I dont think an explaination on your part is nessesary Paul

It's appreciated though (by me at least).

You know what would be awesome? Foil promo variants of the SotM promos when they all get reprinted eventually. I was glancing at the stretch goals on the kickstarter page, and thought that would have been a deal sealer for many.

This would be rather ironic, as it would mean the foil versions are less valuable than the non-foil versions… A complete inversion of what many people know about card games.

Unless it was a limited time deal for the first amount of orders. No way to go back in time and make all of them differently, but I just thought it would be a fun thing to do for some of them. Just voicing random thoughts.

They could do a legacy foil card where only his ring is foil.

I'm not following this. Why would they be less valuable?

(Note that I know nothing about collectible cards - apart from a bunch of old Magic cards I use when making print and play games, every card game I own is non-collectible).

Traditionally foil cards are more rare and therefore worth more money. Having an unlimited set of foil promos would make it so the limited non-foil cards were more expensive while the foil cards remained relatively inexpensive.

So people value foil cards because they're rare, not because they are better?

People are weird.

Did you ever play the Pokemon card game as a kid. That was a trick question. No kid actually played the Pokemon card game, but foils were all the rage. They were shiny, and we had to have shiny things.

Same with Magic. Foil cards, alt art foil cards all carry an intrinsic higher value that the base card.

[quote=Nielzabub]

Did you ever play the Pokemon card game as a kid. That was a trick question. No kid actually played the Pokemon card game, but foils were all the rage. They were shiny, and we had to have shiny things.[/quote]

No, since I was 16 when Pokémon was released to the world, and not a kid! ;) I did play Red/Blue on the GameBoy when I was 19 or 20 but I was playing MtG then and never tried the Pokémon CCG.

I have to admit to a disapproval of artificially-rare collectible items because I hate people missing out due to not learning about the game early enough, not being able to get to conventions, or not having silly amounts of disposable income.

If you were playing Magic then you're familiar with the 11 commons, 3 uncommons and 1 rare/possible foil in a standard Magic booster.

Actually, no. When I bought boosters I cared only about what cards would fit into my decks, and whether I could start working on a completely different deck or decks with whatever was left. I never cared a jot about rarity, just what the cards actually did.

Actually it's 10 commons, 3 uncommons, 1 rare or Mythic Rare (1 in 8 chance), 1 extra common or foil (1 in 11 chance) and 1 basic land.  Also foil cards typically go for about $1 even when it's common just because of the shiny.  Foil Basic land and uncommons hit, $3, foil rares and mythics trend towards 1.5x or 2x normal value.

Or at least it does these days.

As too Story Wars, my love of Sentinels, storytelling and comics is fighting with my wallet over whether to back it fully or just get the comic and buy the game when/if it hits my FLGS.

I'll take that as a compliment! I couldn't have written what I did w/out yours and other people's posts to learn from.

Sorry, poor wording on my part.  What I mean to get at is social games, classically, just don't "review" well because the gaming experience relies on 1% mechanics and 99% group interaction.  For this reason, games like Snake Oil and Story War typically receive wide spectrums of feedback from "can't get enough of it" to "lol what is this garbage?"  

A game that hinges on mechanics, won't really surprise you and is a lot easier to quantify.

But an excellent or scalding review of a social game is almost moot because the players themselves are directly responsible for the experience.  So when people started parroting "Well, Story War got mixed to bad reviews; why would GtG want to be a part of that?" I just wanted to point at that this is a tough genre to review in an objective manner and that your best bet at figuring out if you like the game is to get a group of fun, creative friends together and give it a whirl.

You can print off a good chunk of the cards on the game's website for free: http://www.cantripgames.com/storywar/

You never know you might be surprised.

Just for the record I am aware about the delay to Wrath. We are talking about an extra week or two. The basic point is that it is coming very soon. We wouldn't have even known about the delay, but they were being nice and trying to help people plan accordingly for giving gifts. 

As as for criticism cutting both ways. I truly believe that criticism is a gift. You can learn a lot from it. Here I am seeing statements along the lines of losing all faith in >G. It is hard to know what to do with that. >G is just a small company trying something new that they hope will resonate with peopl. They truly put their heart into this stuff. I mean did you watch the tactics tourney videos? The set and production effort was far beyond what I was expecting. They really try hard. Not everything is going to be great, but as they say" if you want to learn to make an omelette you have to break some eggs." If you don't like what they are doing it would be better to guide them by telling them what you want to see. 

Personally I am hoping for a Roleplaying game with the tactics system as the combat engine. Having old school modules that draw us deeper into the multiverse showing us new heroes and villians, now that is my kind of story telling! (I am probably going to try to do a little bit of that on my own.)

In the mean time we have some great things coming and I am not worried if not everything that >G makes fits my taste. 

Here is what I have taken out from these discussion. Where once some people said "I love GtG!", this has now changed to "I love SotM!" Right or wrong, for that change doesn't matter. It is becomeing clear that GtG is no longer in the same realm of Knizia, Wallace, Moon, etc., but now in the realm of Fantasy Flight, Days of Wonder, GMT. For better or worse.

I think that looking at reviews from people who do actually like storytelling games and have played several would be a great way to get information about whether this is a good storytelling game. It's obvious that many people who reviewed Story War do like the genre a lot and that's why they bought the game in the first place, but have been disappointed by the lack of "game" and/or the lack of variety (Tom Vasel said that they had seen almost all of the cards in their first game).

Personally I'm yet to see why you need a bunch of cards to make up stories about how Tempest would win against Legacy and convince a friend that you're right. It doesn't sound like a game, more a shared activity gamified by the distribution of points by a third party.

It would be very easy for fans of this game (or any game) to argue, "if you're not having fun you're not playing it right!" and essentially blame the players for their own bad experience. I'm glad we're not doing that here.

Can I have permission to use "gamified"?

It's a tricky one. I do still love >G as well as SotM and Tactics (and I'm sure I'll like Spirit Island as well) and I hold out hope that their next project will also be a good one. It's just now I can only say ">G mostly make awesome games".

But yeah, I think you're right that the difference seems to be designers vs publisher. I guess we need to get used to it, even if we don't like the direction things are going in.

it's already a thing, so I don't see why not.  Gamification - Wikipedia

Cool. First time I heard the word. Thanks!

What does that even have to do with anything?

Do people like games, or do they like games because of who made them?

When GtG was SotM everyone who liked SotM liked every game that GtG made.  Because it was one game.

I love 2 of their games, that has nothing to do with how I feel about the company, I like the company for completely different reasons.  I like the peoplethat run the company and I like their business model.  I also really like that they support other game-makers when they like the game.

If I don't like Spirit Island it won't change that I think it is awesome that they are helping it get made.

GtG isn't some mathmatics wizard trying to create only brilliant award winning games.  They are three guys that enjoy telling stories through games who happened to create a comic book world which resonates with a lot of people, and some games that are really fun.  They aren't reinventing gaming, they are just having a good time.  Just let them be themselves, and buy what games you want.

Hell, if I'd made it up I'd still let you use it.

The problem is, if a company makes games you love that aren't "finished" yet, which essentially require them to make more expansions so you can have the "complete" story experience, you become invested in that company and want them to do well (even if you take out feelings about the actual people behind the name).

It's a legitimate worry that if a company like that makes a terrible terrible travesty of a game (not that I'm saying Conflict is that game…) or a series of not-very-good ones, their customers will be much less likely to continue to support them by buying their products. People who aren't emotionally invested like us (and let's face it, we can't possibly be anywhere near the majority of the customer base) who have been burned by bad >G games won't bother buying future games, or existing good ones.

I'm catastrophising here, but a really bad game could have an enormous financial impact on the company, and that affects all of us too if we want to get the future good games and expansions to the existing ones. It might not be as clear-cut as "just don't buy the bad games".

But it is a kickstarter.  It gets paid for before they are made.  Very little financial risk.

I understand the worry that GtG won't come up with games that can fund the company after SotM is done, but I don't think that will be a problem.  Games liek this require a lot less work than SotM Expansions, the amount of art, the fact that the structure of the game is already there. . . this is a low resource game for them to make.  These kind of "Window Dressing" games aren't going to take a serious bite out of time for other more important projects, and profits from them help the company.

Again I'm catastrophising, but if a company makes a terrible game it's not beyond the realms of possibility for the Kickstarter backers to start demanding refunds and kicking up a big stink all over the relevant parts of the internet, and the resulting reputation hit to significantly affect sales of all their games.

I don't believe that will happen to >G, but I'm going for worst-case here to illustrate where I'm coming from. Bad games can hurt reputation and therefore sales. I don't want people to be put off buying their games because they've had bad experiences with other products.

Anecdotal example: I generally don't like games by Fantasy Flight and consider them to be bloated, needlessly complicated boxes too full of bits, with busy unappealing artwork, too much consideration given to the theme (which is usually one I'm not interested in) over the mechanics, terrible rulebooks and errata/FAQ documents longer than the actual rules themselves. I do own and enjoy a few of their games but if I'm interested in a new game and then I find out it's from FF I tend to lose interest pretty quickly because I feel there's a good chance it'll be a bad match for me, because, you know, it's by Fantasy Flight. I don't think I'm alone in allowing my bias against certain companies to affect my purchasing…

Honestly, I don't think Story Wars is a game for people who want to argue why Tempest would kick Legacy's butt, or why Batman would beat Superman, ect. ect.  (Hell, if I was the judge I'd be likely to give a point for a well told loss over a badly justified win if the rules allowed.) I'm seeing Story Wars in the same way I see Snake Oil or The Big Invention, you need to make the most out of what you have in your hand using your imagination.  At best Sentinels Conflict will be light hearted fun, at worst, it'll let me excercise my imagination outside of DnD and writing.

This.

My own thoughts are that I'll treat it like Mad Scientist University. That's another party game with an arbitrary judge, but my partner and I play it two player a lot. We enjoy the plotting and madcap schemes so it doesn't matter to us that we don't score points. Rules can be broken/ignored/changed to suit your purpose in circumstances like this, certainly where the number of players is an issue… When did I become Chaotic Good?

 And sometimes, I like to have a prompt to make me think of a solution to situation I wouldn't think of myself.

Anyway, that's my feeling on the matter. I'll go back to lurking now.

I took the liberty to fix this for you. For a second it sounded like you meant all criticism is a gift and that just can't be right.

If one doesn't like rules that invoke a judging system, why not houserule that aspect away? Personally, I think that with many games (particularly the storytelling ones) it is the journey and the company, rather than the possibility of winning that is important for a game to successful and that the game provides a framework to fall back on. If certain rules of a game create too much annoyance with certain people, I tend to adjust those rules. Yes, it is convenient to not have to do that, but can easily be played upon by making the rules kind of modular. The original Cash 'n Guns did this quite nicely and when we have new player in our group, we usually play a series of games in which we introduce an additional rules-module with every game.

I has everything to do with everything. 

When SotM came out, that was GtG's only game. Then GSF came up for Kickstarter. It had the same type of art and light-hearted feel, and made by the same designer, and many people assumed it would be the same type of game. It was not. Then came Tactics, which was based on a new system, Spirit Island which was designed by someone else, and not Story Wars which is based on another game.

GtG initially gave off this impressions of a designer/publisher. However, it is becomimg clearer and clearer that the desinger part is become less and less. This makes a big difference.  When you hear of a certain desginer, for example, Uwe Rosenberg, Reiner Knizia, Alan Moon, Martinc Wallace, etc., you can usually expect the game to play a particular way. If you like one of their games, there is a decent chance that you will like another. GtG used to be in the category, as a designer, now they aren't.

Publishers are very different. You might know what type of components a game will have (quality wise), but you really don't know how the game will play. Even if you like a previous title, you might not like a new game that is being released.

I think with a project like this, things are changing. That fan base and momentum of being a designer is gone. People will no longer say, "A new GtG game, great I am in," but rather are going to view them as a publisher that is making a new game that might be completely different. Where once you might have said "I love GtG and will get the next game, because I like what they do," this statement changes to "I love SotM, but that has nothing to do with other games."

Woah! That's something I would expect Ronway to say.

I learn from the best.

We're all doomed.

Fixed that for you.

Thank you my acolyte!

Just to continue...

There is absoultely nothing wrong with GtG becoming a publisher instead of a designer. WE all had the wrong impression, while GtG knew this for a long time (rule #15 ftw). Where I think GtG failed with the Kickstarter is that it took too long to address this idea. It should have been posted the first day that Story War will now contain significant info. Coupling with the long awaited comic books did not help to give the right impression.

There is nothing wrong with a publisher reaching out to their former customers to try a new game. However, the impression (not necessarily the reality) is that this was targeted to their SotM fans as more SotM (nothing on the Story War's BGG page, but lots on here and SotM page).

The fans are clearly beginning to make this disctinciton between designer/publisher, and I think GtG can do a bit more on their side to make this distinction too. Just check out all the posts before it was revealed to see what people were thinking about.

Where's the closest hood shop?

Pydro, I feel that is fan created impression that GtG would just be a design studio for a certain type of game.  I have no exposure to any of them beyond these forums, but it's always seemed clear to me in interviews that they are wanting to be a strong board game publisher.  Also, with the exception of Wallace, none of the names you mentioned have a game company - they design games for companies to publishers, so the comparison does not make sense to me.  Not to mention that to say their games ar similar enough that a fan of one would be likely to fan of the others seems to be streching it - see Bohnanza vs Agricola for Rosenberg, for example.  All of which is to say, I think any impression of designer/publisher came from the fans - since they had the one game first that was a hit - and not from the company itself

You'll know when you're ready.

Yes, some designers will have some different games, but if you play Agricola, there is a good chance that you will like Gates of Loyang, Le Havre, and Caverna. Not everything will be the same, but it can be close. See a Knizia game, you can bet it's an abstract with a pasted on theme. Alan Moon won't be that complex etc.

My point was not that each one of those are designers and publishers, but rather the fan base for a designer vs a publisher is very different. You react differently to a new Rosenberg game, then to a new Fantasy Flight game.

This was one of the missteps with GSF. It gave off the same impressions as SotM, the light-hearted feel, but it was much heavier and more complex. A group that played SotM might not like GSF. This wasn't expressed clearly. Many people viewed it as another game from the same designer, and had certain expectations.

As I mentioned above, the impressions wrong impression might be ours, but GtG has done nothing to alleviate this. Sentinel Conflicts is not a new SotM game, it a re-themed story game. If so, why are the only posts about this in the SotM forum and not the Story Wars forums. They only exposed it to certain people, which gives off the wrong impression.

When we finally get a comic book, it is attached to a completely different game, this is not giving the impression that they are separate.

Redgardless of whose fault it is about a designer/publisher, there is clearly a huge disconnect. Threads  like thia, and on BGG, are proof to that.

Thanks. I was in too much awe/knee-shaking terror to form the sentence correctly.

Board Game Geek Average Ratings:

Story War: Average rating 5.5/10 http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/137550/story-war

Sentinels of the Multiverse Core: 7.56/10 http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/102652/sentinels-multiverse

SotM: Rook City: 8.04/10 http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/110242/sentinels-multiverse-rook-city

SotM: Infernal Relics: 8.27/10 http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/123726/sentinels-multiverse-infernal-relics

SotM: Shattered Timelines: 8.39/10 http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/132959/sentinels-multiverse-shattered-timelines

SotM: Vengeance: 8.28/10 http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgameexpansion/134398/sentinels-multiverse-vengeance

Galactic Strike Force: 6.37/10 http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/137811/galactic-strike-force

Sentinel Tactics: The Flame of Freedom: 7.62/10

And a few games Sentinels characters appeared in:

Pixel Lincoln: 6.09/10 http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/125609/pixel-lincoln-deckbuilding-game

BattleCon: Devastation of Indines: 8.56/10 http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/123123/battlecon-devastation-indines

I've yet to see any Dragon Tides reviews, but The Operative appears in it: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/682539325/return-of-the-dragon

So what is the standard for these reviews where SotM or >G being associated with a game is worth someone losing their faith in the company?  I'm assuming it's somewhere between 5.5 and 6.08 based on these stats.  Or is it below the lowest SotM review of 7.56?  Is 6.37 for GSF considered a success or is that when people should have lost faith in >G?

I'm sorry if this is vitriolic but I'm still very confused about how negative reviews are being valued here.

Reckless: Game reviews are like movie reviews. Highly subjective and skewed towards a certain audience. There are movies that get paned in reviews that still manage to have a very loyal following. Grandmas Boy was destroyed by reviewers but manages to be one of the funniest movies ever made. Hell, even Cassablanca, a classic movie gem, was ripped to shreds when it came out. Godfather II. Same thing. Are you gonna try and tell me those are failures of their genre? Games are no different.

Does success and failure hinge upon mass appeal? Or does it hinge on finding a sect of people that enjoy what you are putting out? 

If your argument is that Story Wars won't find it's niche of folks who like it, thats fine, and I will still disagree. But if you are arguing that you need mass appeal to be a success than I think you are making a wildly flawed argument.

No…I'm genuinely asking why people are freaking out over reviews because they seem rather insignificant in the grand scheme.  I'm geniunely confused about why Story War's 5.5 is a "bad" rating for >G to associate with when they associated with Pixel Lincoln's 6.09.

I'm all in favor of playing Story Wars with my niece and nephew.  I'm interested in what comes of it.  But other people seem to think that since our old pal Tom Vassel thinks it's not so hot and it has a low review on BGG that >G are somehow less than what they were before.

So…to answer your questions…
1.  I'm not familiar enough with cinema to give you an informed perspective.

2.  I think mass appeal and cult classics both have something to offer.

I'm saying "What is the problem here, folks?  I'm genuinely confused as to what value people are attaching to all of these numbers and what is qualified as "good" or "bad", since Story War has been pigeonholed into the "bad" side of things by naysayers based on low ratings.  Here is some sample data for this subject to provide a baseline, please give me your qualities for good or bad, and have a nice day."

I can only speak for myself, but I'm looking at the actual words rather than the numbers.

Also, Pixel Lincoln vs Story War: >G didn't publish PL, just allowed someone else to use their characters in it. That's a big difference to me.

Sweet :D  PDF version of the comic as a backer option.  Sold!

Now I'm curious if the PDF version (just announced) will be available after the kickstarter. Like many here, I'm not interested in Story Wars. At all. I would more prefer that my money not even go towards the kickstarter at all, even if that seems a little petty. I just feel like that is lying to >G that they have a larger backing for a game than they actually do. Hmmm, we shall see...

Also, they're making the comic book sound a bit more of a premium quality than one would initially assume when you think of a "comic book." Plus, stretch goals are apparently upgrading the quailty even more. That makes me feel better about pledging.

They know who's shelling out for just the comic and who's showing interest in the entire package. If only 10 people want the game and 40 people pledge for the comic, there is data to draw accuracte conclusions. People want a neat comic book, not a party game.

However, with a staggering 349 people backing the comic+game package (and rising), and only less than 40-50 people for the individual packages, that tells them that people show more interest in the game.

I get what you're saying, though. I feel that my contribution is going toward something I don't want to obtain something I DO want.

I'd totally prefer for >G to get all of my $10 rather than Kickstarter taking a chunk of it. I'd also prefer not to have my Kickstarter profile look like I backed Story War. I already look like I bought Dungeon Roll when all I did was throw $1 at them…

Not trying to argue or make a point here but simple curiosity - I wonder how many people who were only really interested in either the game or the comic have actually pledged for both because what the hell, it's only $20/15?

Games and hobbies thrive on impulse buys.  People buying a game because they really, really want it and people who buy a game because they really, really want to buy a game don't make much of a difference when it comes to sales.  How the players react to the game may be quite different, of course, but if someone is so disinterested in the game that they don't want to throw fifteen to twenty bucks at it when it's bundled with a comic they really want, then they're voting with their dollars.  I've sold plenty of SotM sets at the FLGS I work at, but I don't really differentiate whether the buyer was really interested in superheroes, co-op games, card games, or anything else.  I tell them it's a great superhero co-op game, describe some of the mechanics, and then they buy it or they don't and I see what else they my be interested in.  That curiosity of "was this an impulse buy or a calculated, deliberate purchase," is rampant in this field, and it could be applied to nearly any game when someone has some cash burning a hole in their pocket.

Of course this doesn't have much bearing on the quality of the game, but I don't know that it matters much if people are getting it just to have it.  If they get it and it isn't their thing they took a calculated risk and didn't really lose out on much because their expectations weren't high.  If they got it because they really wanted it and they didn't get what they wanted then that's way more disappointing.

Hurray for Impulse purchases! That's how I got Sentinels of the Multiverse, which in turn got me more into board gaming! Just think, if the coin toss landed on the opposite side, none of you would of ever heard the name Ronway! You lucky people!

For me, SotM was a very calculated decision, mostly because I knew it was going to be a big investment. After the expansions, I made decisions down the road, such as "do I bother sleeving every single card to keep it nice and shiny?" and "do I invest in printed out promos or hunt for them on eBay (a financially simple choice to make...)?" And so on.

I hate being a completionist.

Yeah. I'm just interested because while I used to be an impulse buyer myself, I now rarely buy anything that I don't actually need without extensive research. Is this thing any good? Does it do what I want it to do? Is it worth the money? Can I get it (or an acceptable equivalent product) cheaper? Is there a better alternative? Can I try it out first? Will it still be available later if I don't get it right now? Can I persuade someone to buy it for me for Christmas or my birthday? I have to be frugal with my own purchases because I have no actual income being unable to work, and most of my game purchases are for my RPG club using club funds so I can't exactly fritter away money that isn't mine - everything I buy has to be considered.

Off topic, but yeah, I'm interested in these alien "yeah I'll drop $200 on this game because it has zombies/warthogs/steampunk unicorns on the cover even though I know nothing about the gameplay" behaviours…

Calculated for me too, although I didn't take completionism into account. The thought process was: Our RPG club has spare money for a boardgame. A couple of the guys pointed out we don't have a superhero-themed game. SotM looks the best out of the available three, with the added advantage that non-comic-fan-me won't be disadvantaged by not knowing reams of existing lore like many of the guys. Let's buy that one.

Ha! That's totally how I got into SotM too. I have quite a few board games but didn't have a super hero themed one and SotM had some good buzz so I went for it. 

And now you have the benefit of knowing reams of existing lore about a superhero universe (or, to be precise, Multiverse)

Tell me about it! My friends have taken to calling me Sentipedia, despite my protests that there are people on here who know a vast amount more lore than I do…

I'm still confused as to how the SotM story will be continuing in Conflict, when it doesn't appear that there's anything more on the cards than a simple description.  Is it because new characters will have cards in Conflict that we don't have decks for or something?  Or there will be alt versions of characters in Conflict that we don't have in SotM?

I think it's really found in the comic book. From what it looks like, the story and unvierse will be more fleshed out in the TPB and less so in the cards.

From the Q&A, the story won't be continuing in Conflict. The whole point of Conflict is a vehicle for folks to tell their own stories, not to progress the cannon.

So then I'm detecting zero reason to buy the game if I don't think it will be fun, and zero reason to complain if other people want to buy the game.  I'm all set.

+1!

+2

Ah, don't make me do arithmetic , today…

One plus two plus two plus one?

Clue is such a fantastic movie. Well worth going off topic to point it out.

Depending on the era, I use either horses or trucks to progress the cannons. Have to put the artillery in the right spots.

I don't know. Some of my fondest memories of Empire:TW have been my cannon were in the wrong place.

We quote this line in everyday use in our house at least once a week, and it comes up in at least 1/3 of my SotM games.

Well look at that, a stretch goal for the Comic specifically.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/story-war-sentinel-conflict-and-cosmic-contest-com/posts

OMG SQUEE!!

Sorry, but really, Adam has gone from not bad to very good, and I'd love to see (and hold) that comic with new artwork.  Don't know the odds of it making it that far though.

Just in case someone doesn't know about Kicktraq, here is a link to Sentinel Conflict.

Made it to the Crowdfunding Round-Up.

Nothing much on the BGG page, except two comments. I didn't realize the Dice Tower had something on it weeks ago until the comment. It starts at 3:17.

Unless a massive bump comes I don't see this one succeeding.  Which mostly will make me sad that we don't get a comic book

I will be sad too.  I am left to wonder if a comic-only KS would have funded successfully (my feeling is that it easily would have).  It could still fund, but it needs a surge from somewhere

It seems like they have the comic book prepared.  If the Kickstarter doesn't get funded for the game & comic, perhaps they can do what they did with WCos and take pre-orders on their site so that they know how many people want a physical book, then add some so that they have a little inventory to sell from the store?  The digital version of the comic seems like it'd be relatively straightforward to set up in the store as-is.

Wow.

That's just…

Wow.

Ouch, harsh comments at that. It more or less reflects the same kind of reaction we discussed, but in a more abraisive and untactful manner.

I'm confident the comic book will still happen, though.

Yeah that was my reaction too. I very much disagree that Tactics was a step down from SotM though. Idk how you can come to that conclusion.

Nick is always very critical of the SotM artwork and relatively unfiltered with his opinions about when he feels that companies are just trying to "grab" money - see his comments on the War Extended Edition of BattleCon for one more recent example.  The sad fact is - and I said this a few times during the Tactics KS - GTG is good at many things, but online PR and presence is not always one of them.  I can certainly see how people can come to the conclusion that GTG is trying to cash in on a popular hit game by theming it out.  I am not saying that's what I believe, but then again I hang out here most days.  The large majority of their potential customer base does not

@Craig (or Mod)

Can you modify the thread title to mention Sentinel Conflict?

EDIT: Wow, that was fast.

Also, on Tactics - I think the KS rubbed some people the wrong way and the online reaction/buzz has been very minimal since it actually released.  Reviews have been generally lukewarm/positive but it's described as "light tactical" which is read as derogatory by many.  I will admit that SotM hit the table a lot more than Tactics amongst my family/group.  I still like the game, just dont have the same love as I do for the card game.

Yeah. Different people are going to like different games. It's a shame we can't accept and support that.

Obviously, he doesn't like games like Story War. I'm with him on that, but I'm willing to accept there are other folks who do like games like Story War and that there's nothing wrong with that.

It's a light day at work (i.e., I'm avoiding doing things I really should be ).

You too, eh?

And despite what has been said about Tactics, I look forward to when my set ships to my place. I think it's a great game, especially if you love the characters. And mixing/matching villian and hero teams is really interesting to me.

Yeah I hope they can get the comic out still.  I think Adam does really good artwork and getting storyline directly from Christopher is always awesome

I wish I could say today is a light day at work. Well, I kinda don't. I guess.

Something I wish folks in the 'verse would remember/know is that Christopher, Adam, and Paul created the company to make the games they want to play. They have always said as much. Their Kickstarter bio even says: “The most important thing to us is making the games we want to play available to everyone.”

They like Story War - so much so they gave them booth space at the past few Cons and have been selling their product. So it makes sense (to me, anyway) they would want to share it with everyone in the GTG style.

But, as has been mentioned, without a PR effort to get that information out there - to get the real story out there - people are going to assume they're just trying to make a buck.

Here's another thought, with respect to something that at least one other company has said on a kickstarter:

GtG may be taking the approach of "we're printing this game anyway. What the Kickstarter will tell us is the size of the print run."

I can assure you that this is not the case. If it doesn't fund, neither gets made.

And that's great. I'm glad they're connecting to fans on a personal level, a level in which they can truly be passionate about what they create, because they love telling that story and creating the game. Well, except Story War was already a game. But I digress.

There is just little mutual interest in the game. And while it's important to respect those who do love something, you also have to reach a reasonable level of demand. And I think there are valid reasons for and against Sentinels Conflict (not saying either side is right or wrong).

Are there no plans to kickstart the comics by themselves?

@Craig - I think having you on board as a full time employee of GtG to manage their "presence", so to speak, could be really helpful with perception and future Kickstarters/pre-orders.  I just look at the way information and communication is handled on Stonemaier Games Kickstarters (as one example) and just wish we could see something like that from GTG.  It certainly would have helped a lot of the bad feelings during the Tactics KS.  Having a community manager who is the point person for updates/transparency/etc would be a great help with all of that.  As always, just my personal opinion

Yeah - I know it's not the case, but it does look very much like a cheap cash grab like the recent Hobbit/Batman/etc themed Love Letters.

I think he made the same point during the 2014 round up podcasts kisting GtG as his disappointment of the year (giving GSF a kicking at the same time). On a plus side though, Another contributor Suzanne(?) had the sentinels app as her second favourite board game app of the year

As for his art criticism, I think it's a taste thing. Sentinels for me is closer to a 60s DC hero cartoon with bright colourful heroes and villains, than to the modern comics made by the likes of Ed Brubaker and Sean Philips. It's designed for fun, rather than trying to make you think so although I can see his point of view, I don't agree with it

I for one am very glad that Adam's art isn't trying to emulate that realistic gritty chicken-scratch style with a million black lines everywhere. I hate how that looks and it completely puts me off comics in general.

The numbers aren't looking so good right now. I know it's normal to get a big push towards the end of a campaign, but how many will withdraw their pledges when they think they aren't getting stuff from stretch goals?

Like this card? 

500×700 201 KB

Yeah, but that’s Adam making fun of that kind of art.

Yup, that's exactly it.

I think I just don't like cartoons to try for ultra-realism. If I wanted realistic, I'd look at photographs. That's just me though... I much prefer traditional animation to the hideous unsettling CGI nonsense you get everywhere nowadays.

Also, get off my lawn.

Man Silverleaf I am right there with you, hate hash marks, unreal physical appearance, "Gritty reboots," too much CGI crap, Cell Phones and people on my lawn.

The tone of the art and the story have to match - the Criminal series is brilliant, and part of that is how strong the art tone matches the noir world it presents. They then did the incredible touch in the 6th storyline "Last of the Innocent", where a person looking back on his childhood was reflected in panels that were done in the style of an Archie type comic

Honestly I hope they plan on releasing Cosmic Contest. I would love to read that.

If only for a digital release, I agree.

Canceled.

Well that's a shame.

What happened? It seemed to be going well early on.

Is there any way the comic might get made now? I didn't care at all about the game, but I was going to pledge for the PDF comic.

It wasn't trending towards being funded, and judging by the cancellation email that went out, they'd gotten enough numbers to decide that there wasn't sufficient interest to go forward in those particular directions.

It sounds like they aren't going to go forward with the comic at all at this time, which is unfortunate but measurably understandable.  Out of the ~600 people who pledged for some version of the comic (digital, physical, physical + game) if every one of those people were willing to buy the digital version directly from GtG, that's still only ~6000.  I don't know what kind of infrastructure upgrade they'd need to support the ability to make those sales & downloads, but apparently the cost/benefit isn't worthwhile.  Sad for those of us willing to pay for it, but that's business.

For those who hadn't backed the KS so didn't get this:

Hello, fans and friends of the Multiverse.

We have learned a lot from Kickstarter over the years. During the Kickstarter for the Shattered Timelines expansion for Sentinels of the Multiverse, we said we would not run any more Kickstarters for Sentinels of the Multiverse products - that game is well established enough to support its own expansions. Since then, we have decided to go a step further and not run Kickstarter campaigns for expansions for any existing products. If a product is strong enough to warrant an expansion, it shouldn't need a Kickstarter campaign to make that expansion happen. 

When we run Kickstarter campaigns, the purpose is two-fold: procure funding for a product we are interested in making and gauge interest in said product. As a result - even though we are cancelling the Kickstarter for Sentinel Conflict and the Cosmic Contest comic book - we consider this Kickstarter campaign to have successfully done its job. It let us know whether we should make these products or not.

We had hoped there would be interest in a Sentinel Comics version of Story War, as we had played and enjoyed Story War. However, the response here, on our website and others, and on social media has been clear: Story War is not a direction people are interested in seeing the Multiverse go. Good to know! We are glad to have learned that now and not after printing several thousand copies of the game.

We were more surprised by a general lack of interest in the comic book. "When are you going to start making actual comic books?" is a question we get with great regularity, and so we were excited to answer "NOW!" with this campaign. And when we were asked for a digital version, we figured out what we needed to do to make PDFs of the comic available as pledge levels. However, here we are, most of the way through the campaign, with barely over a hundred backers of the comic book levels. This Kickstarter has also informed us that, though people may be interested in reading comic books from Sentinel Comics, few are interested in purchasing them. And that is good to know. We are still interested in making comic books, and Adam and I will continue to work on them, but they will remain side projects at most, as we have to continue to make actually salable products to continue to survive as a company.

The other feedback that we have gotten from this campaign is just how much people want us to continue making content for the Sentinels of the Multiverse card game and for the Sentinel Tactics tabletop game. That is great! Those of you interested in Sentinels of the Multiverse should check out our recently released Challenges and Achievements! Also, you will be excited to learn that the Wrath of the Cosmos expansion hasbegun shipping, so if you preordered it, you'll get it soon! And if not, it'll be available for sale soon! Sentinel Tactics fans can look forward to more official Sentinel Tactics Tournaments! And gaming events are happening all over the place this month as part of Multiverse Month! Get your local gaming store involved!

Additionally, keep an eye on our website, as we will have even more exciting news about the world of Sentinel Comics in the next few weeks. The cancellation of this Kickstarter is a somber event, but what we have learned from it is invaluable, and we look forward to giving you more of the game content you want!

Thank you for being a part of our Multiverse. We couldn't do this without you. Keep on saving the Multiverse

-Christopher Badell
Game Design Director
Greater Than Games, LLC

From how the cancellation update was worded, it would appear that they decided not enough people wanted the comic. Which I would probably disagree with, since there was a significant amount of people backing the comic+game bundle, even though there wasn't many of one or the other. And I'd wager a comic is easier/cheaper to mass produce than a game.

Oh well, maybe it will resurface again eventually.

Numbers don't lie. People's desire or the comic didn't convert to them backing it. Without numerical evidence of support (i.e. Cash dollars) GtG has no evidence to support the undertaking of production ad printing cost.

I kind of ran into this early on when trying to convince peope to pledge. I would talk about how awesome the comic would be and almost everyone agreed, but when it came down to pledging pretty much everyone said. "Oh when its funded I'll just borrow it from you!" Now its not funded and no one gets to read it.

I wonder how many people would have pledged for the comic once they got the 48hr reminder email. At least one (me), so I suspect others.

I'd have done it unwillingly, since I had absolutely no interest in Story War and didn't want my KS profile to look like I'd backed it (vanity, I know). A pledge for just the comic would still look like I backed both, but I did just about got over that.

I'd have liked an actual physical copy, but $40 international shipping seemed way too much for me when Sentinel Tactics plus an expansion shipped for $40.

I don't get why the two projects were bundled together.

I wanted the comic but did not back the kickstarter because I had no interest in the game.

If they had ran a separate one I would have backed.

+1 I wanted the digital comic but the idea that my buck for the comic was endorsing another direction that really didn't convince me felt just wrong.

I will also add that the re-art upgrade of the freedom four comic had me lukewarm. There's more than enough story content in SotM to not have to use the same script over. I still like old badly drawn comic book as drawing is only half of it's essence. Speaking of wich WotC is shipping without us getting the dev journal on progeny. I remember the mechanic being discussed in podcast but that's not the same as getting to know where it comes from what it is, what motevates it, why does it have a bone to pick with KNYFE. It's one thing to run a game against a villain with new players but it's a better experience when you can flesh out the encounter with such information and the dev. journal are a great opportunity to share some of that.

Even counting everyone who pledged for the comic + game, there was not enough interest in the comic to justify the cost of production. The reason for this is that not only is there infrastructure, etc, necessary to make something like that, but comics are also incredibly time consuming from both an art and a writing standpoint. We wanted to know if it was worth it from an economic perspective to invest that time, and it turns out it probably isn't, which is really good to know!

Super secret behind-the-scenes business knowledge: Realistically, we probably need 1200 - 1500 people, at minimum, who are interested in buying a comic in order for it to make sense. We were willing to fudge those numbers a little on the Kickstarter if Sentinel Conflict really attracted a lot of interest (i.e., we would have been OK making the comic with 1000 customers if it were subsidized by the game), which is why we paired them together.

Wait, so the comic wasn't done?

That explains a bit actually. Sad that the comic is being shelfed: I would have gladly paid money for that.

Thanks for the insight, Paul. It helps to know a little more about how decisions are made, and I can see why having low numbers for this project translated to not having enough interest.

With that being said, what if the stigma of backing an undesired product was removed from the kickstarter, as Silverleaf and Medic-Tank pointed out? Most, if not all of the updates and information we received was about the game, and the comic seemed like an "extra add-on." Had we known more about what to expect from the comic, do you think we would have had more interest?

I hope the possibility of comics are revisited in the future. It's probably one of the first questions I was asked when introducing Sentinels of the Multiverse to my friends. I sheepishly dodged the question, mentioning that it was in the works, also not realizing we had a couple of digital versions, as well as the scenario books in Tactics (those totally count! ).

I hope we can see that comic at some point, even if just in digital.  Don't know if it would work to tie it in to a stretch goal on the next card game expansion or not, but I am dying to read more about the time period WCos covers.

Paul, maybe you can speak to this, but do you think maybe a little bit of this has to do with where Kickstarter is in general?

The tabletop section of Kickstarter hasn't really been seeing the kind of success it was seeing 2 years ago. The number of large and popular projects which draw in most of the page views to the Tabletop tab have been dwindling. There is not as much excitment and competition drawing eyes there as there was in mid 2013. I have seen one very large project since the end of Summer and that was by CMoN who know how to run a decent KS but are primarily benifiting from a lack of strong competition from other projects. Do you guys feel any sense of this as well? 

I'm not saying that this KS didn't fund due to Kickstarter, but that a project with the specific niche Story Wars has would have benefited greatly from a larger number of foot traffic. The original Story Wars KS completed funding in March 2013, right in the middle of the huge boom of big projects and large funding and backer numbers. It had enough eyes to catch those who were interested. I am just not seeing anything near that level of backer confidence on the tabletop section of KS recently.

Yes, I really want to hear that story! I hope that we see comics in the future.

I'm also wondering if lack of exposure and engagement affected things. There was nothing on BGG until well after the KS was launched including no game entry, and just a few teaser pictures on Facebook before. No-one seemed to be talking about it. I imagine that many non-forum Sentinels fans heard nothing about it until ads started showing up on BGG (if then), again later than launch.

Seems that many successful KS campaigns start creating buzz early. For example Tiny Epic Galaxies hasn't even launched yet and there's already been lots of talk, with print and play files released, prototypes given away in exchange for advanced reviews, adverts, updates to previous campaigns announcing the new ones... and I have no doubt that it will fund crazy fast. Sure, different game and different audience, but it seems recently that you can't just put your project on Kickstarter and expect it to fund without seeming to do very much to promote it. Several comments on the campaign suggested that they thought >G had kind of "abandoned" the project due to lack of engagement.

And again I can only speak personally, but I didn't promote this campaign myself, because I wasn't interested in the game at all and couldn't just point people at the comic since it was inextricably linked to a game I didn't want to look like I was supporting.

I was just thinking that a playthrough video would have been helpful, showing people actually enjoying and having fun with the game. Call it the Tabletop effect if you like, but I've totally bought games that aren't my usual "type" because I've seen other people having a great time playing them.

I mean, anyone who's met Christopher (or seen him in a video or heard him on a podcast) will know how interesting and engaging and exciting he is, and he's obviously a natural storyteller. And Paul's great fun to play games with too (can't comment on Adam since I haven't met him). It would have been great to use those assets to show us how good the game could be.

Christopher's inherent charisma would be great tool to utilize for those things, I totally agree with Silverleaf here.

At this point I'd probably buy Christopher's laundry list if I saw/heard him explaining how cool it was.

Probably not for $40 shipping, but I'd be tempted.

I did back the whole shebang (despite European shipping and all), but to be perfectly honest, I have to this day no notion of what the heck that game was about.

I am not annoyed at that, after all, I could have made an effort and read the Story Wars rules, but it does mean that I bought this more or less entirely on good faith. Which is totally fine by me, but proably not something that everybody is prepared to do.

I was tempted to buy the comic book, but 25 USD for a single comic just seemed absolutely outrageous, for reasons previously described in this topic.

As for the digital version? Honestly, I don't find digital worth paying for at all... Ten USD for what amounts to a rental? That's very thing that's driving me away from video games- and by consequence, the same thing you more or less have to thank for me moving to board games- I like actually owning stuff, not merely getting permission to use it for a while. When I want to do that, I borrow something from a friend (and have ended up buying many a book, movie, or game that I've previously borrowed). Even with the Sentinels of the Multiverse digital version, the only reason I really bought it was to get the physical promo card that came with it... I still prefer to pop out the real thing when I want to play. I went through each of the villains once on the tablet, then never returned to it. I even go so far as to jokingly tell my friends that "I bought this card and it came with a free copy of the digital version of Sentinels!".

I learned today that the word "shebang" can also refer to the punctuation #! . I have no idea what the proper use of #! is, but I intend to either find out or invent one. Also, did you know that "interrobang" refers to a combination of question marks and exclamation points!?!! I thought everyone would want to know.

Back on topic now. The Kickstarter could definitely have benefitted from from the infectious enthusiasm that the folks at >G have demonstrated repeatedly; but this campaign felt very hands-off. The combination of the comic and game felt a little weird; they seem to be aimed at two audiences that, I imagine, don't have a lot of overlap. I'm not at all interested in Story Wars, but I don't care if people see that I backed it (I backed Katalyka, too, but Citizen Dawn and I still get along). My big disappointment was that the comic (which I really want to happen) is tethered to this mostly separate thing that drew a bunch of negative comments. Even if there are compelling business reasons, it somehow seems wrong that the fate of one should be tied to the other.

Ummm…what in the world are you talking about? I highly doubt any PDF file from >G would have restrictive use DRM and could easily be opened with Adope Reader and printed. 

See, I like digital things myself. I feel that it's grossly wasteful of resources and money to make something out of paper in China, wrap it in plastic, ship it thousands of miles to the US, repackage it, and then ship it thousands of different miles to the UK, when I could enjoy it just as well in non-dead-tree form almost instantly with no shipping fees or fuel or paper required.

I do buy board games in analogue form because the physicality of such a game is important, especially in a social context. But a comic that I'm just going to read? No need for the paper.

I agree, the pairing seemed weird to me too, and Paul's confirmed that it was for financial reasons rather than because they "belonged" together.

I meant the move to digital in general. Even without DRM- say a site like GOG- it's still little more than a rental. There's no way to transfer ownership, I can't sell or trade it, and even if I just want to lend it out, I essentially have to let them borrow my computer/console/phone/tablet/laptop/etc.

I just wrote a blog post going into detail about why the project failed and how GTG could relaunch just the comic and be succseful. I don't feel like the comic had a fair test with the last campain because the comic wasn't promoted at all. There was no video and the comic was shoved to the bottom of the page where most people don't get because they don't like storytelling games. If there was a relaunch the comic would fund but only if it was by itself and was pomoted as well as every other GTG kickstarer project exept the last one. The chatter I'm hear is people were backing at the highest level not because they wanted both but because they wanted the campain to fund so they could get the comic and the bundle was the highest level. What risk is there to GTG to try a relaunch in May? If it fails at least it will make most of the complainers be quite.   More detail if you follow the link.

http://www.williamumstattd.com/2015/01/7-reasons-gtg-latest-kickstarter-failed-and-why-they-should-restart-with-only-the-comic-book/

I ran into a similar situation as DefeatedDust: my Louisville people just figured they'd borrow my copy of the comic. When I tried explaining to them why that was a bad idea and hurt chances of the comic being funded at all, they didn't listen. It does seem pretty absurd to think "Eh, GtG should just make comics for me for free." But maybe this will show them the problem that causes. If there's a next time chance for a comic to be printed, maybe people will get the picture that physical comics don't come free.

I guess our "Who would win" discussions will have to stay here on the forums instead of on the table. Shame.

I'm as confused as Foote.  I can transfer ownership of a non-DRMed PDF as easily as emailing a copy to a friend.  In fact, I'd say the problem is that it would be too easy to distribute for free without GtG getting paid for it, rather than the other way around.

CTL+C / CTL+V

Now your friends have it too.  Welcome to the beauty and burden of the Digital Age.

A smaller digital only campain just for the comic could be a way to bring down cost and risk with maybe an actuall print run as a streach goal or seprate campain. I understand not wanting to jump into another indursty but comics and board games are so close to each other I thinking GTG could make it work. In Austin we have a game store that is 60% board games 40% comics for example.

While I believe such should be fully legal, it isn't. But copyright law is an entirely different beast altogether, and I don't want to derail the topic any more than I already have.

I don't agree that >G should have included promos for seperate games in this campaign. People might well have thought the only way they could get the promos would be to buy a game they had no interest in, and I don't think that's a good way to foster loyalty in your customers.

I wouldn't buy a box of doughnuts to get the cookies I really wanted, if I didn't intend to buy the doughnuts in the first place.

Another thought - a simple print and play demo version might have helped to sell Conflict as well. That's usually a great way to convince fence-sitters one way of the other - they tend to either love the game enough to want a production copy, or they don't like it and don't back it (but they probably weren't going to back it anyway).

A file with limited art (perhaps Adam's line sketches) and even limited cards, just enough for a trial game or two maybe, could get people interested in the game and champing at the bit for a "real" copy, with final art.

It seems to work absolutely fine for the likes of the Tiny Epic line, Coin Age, Burgoo, This Town Ain't Big Enough for the 2-4 of Us, Scoville, Dead Drop, Cards Against Humanity, and lots of other things Kickstarted recently.

It's no different than burning a CD and giving it to a friend. Not too many FBI raids on 1995 chevys confiscating the disk collection strapped to their visor these days. Unless you are reselling it for money you are well within common sense copyright. We are talking about a digitally distributed and open PDF file here remember.

I will take a bit of the blame here for the comic not happening; sorry, everyone. I really wanted the comic, but my adamant distaste for the game forced me not to back. I just really didn't like the idea of my pledge for something I wanted, going toward the funding of something I really didn't want. It was probably wise of them to cancel the kickstarter, but as others have said, I don't see the wisdom in judging a lack of interest in the comic based on this. I can't imagine that there aren't others like me, who specifically did not back to send the exact message they received, "We don't want Story Wars with a Sentinels paint job."

I hope they try the kickstarter route again, but solely for the comic. I'll back that. I promise.

That's exactly how I feel, right down to the promise to pledge for the comic. Exactly.

I mean I wouldn't want to speculate on whether another 600 people would want the comic than have already pledged for it, but with some networking and advertising, who knows? It doesn't seem out of the question.

I'm with Silverleaf. I remembered I was going to pledge for the pdf, but then the kickstarter ended. I have played story wars, and I hated it. I do improv so it seems like it would be a game that I would enjoy, but it turned to squabbling, and I hate that. I loved the premise of the comic, and I still want to know why Parse was the only released hero not on the cover. Guise may not have been on it either, but I can't remember.

Point of clarification, GTG has never included promos that weren't for the game being Kickstartered (this was a big point during GSF because many folks had no interest in GSF but would have pledged just for the promos) and they have clearly stated they will not do this despite knowing it would fund a great deal more.  

So Lets Take a Survey and I will post the Results 

Sentinals Comic Survey

I'm sorry that this didn't fund, mainly because it could mean that a comic may now never end up being made.  I really want to read Sentinels Comics, so I hope this doesn't end up being their deathknell.  I get what Paul said about the business aspect, but I feel like this wasn't a fair test for the comic.  It didn't seem like there was a huge amount of promotion for it.  The people who introduced me to Sentinels never even heard about it.  :(

For the record, in the context of discussion over .pdf issues: personally, the .pdf version suited me down to the ground, as a way of getting around expensive global shipping.  

Exactly, it not only provides a false sense of demand and instills false faith for a project that won't do well, but it also defeats the purpose of the incentive.

I remember back when Apple used to include a free iPod with the Macbooks (not the pros). I thought the regular Macbooks paled in comparison to the Pros, but I wanted an iPod. If the original product didn't sell me, why would I buy it anyway for something that I would have paid money for separately? This isn't a good comparison to the Kickstarter, since you COULD have bought that iPod separately. But ultimately the funds went toward a bundle deal.

I fully agree with you there. However, for the purpose of supporting a product that would otherwise not be funded and ultimately fail, I could not bring myself to share or ask others for a copy of a Sentinels comic book in PDF form. I'm not holding everyone to the same moral compass, but that's the stance I feel would be more beneficial for supporting an awesome indie company.

I don't nessesarily disagree with you on that point. I would absolutly support a project and company I believe in with my money. However not everyone will, especially when we are talking about open digital distribution. Thats just the reality of the social landscape at the moment.

Keep in mind that open formats like what we are discussing, when shared freely, have a ton of positives even without every single copy consumed generating revenue. It generates more consumption by a wider audience than it would have otherwised reached, which in turn creates a wider audience who will be willing to support them in the future. All of that needs to be taken into consideration from a business standpoint and weighed. The notion that sharing digital goods is inherently bad or harmful is flawed. It's a powerful tool when used appropriatly. I would share my digital SotM Comics in a heartbeat if I knew I had the chance to hook others into the world >G has created.

I couldn't complete your survey since I don't want a physical copy (just a PDF) and it wouldn't let me submit my answers without responding to those questions.

Your answers would be $0 under other then

Yup. Sharing with someone who wouldn't have bought the comic anyway in the hope that they'll like it enough to buy future products is completely valid. That's why food/drink companies give out samples in stores to people who weren't intending to buy said product. And that's why many digital board/card games (Hearthstone being a great example) have free base games - if people like it enough, they'll pay for more cards/extra levels/avatars/whatever. If they don't, you haven't really lost anything.

That wouldn't be accurate though. I don't want a physical copy, which is not the same thing as wanting to pay $0 for a copy.

The problem with a "smaller" campaign is it does not reduce the work to put the comic together.  You cut out the printing but Adam is the artist for SotM, and Christopher is the writer.  You don't just pump out a comic book in a few days, that is a lot of art, and much more involved than the art on the cards, you also have a much more involved writing process, neither of which is cheap, esp. when you are faced with the cost-benefit of having Adam and Christopher work on stuff for Tactics or SotM.

You aren't just recouping Adam and Christopher's share of the company profits either, when you dedicate time to a comic instead of something else you need to make the money those other projects would make, you need to cover rent (taxes and maintaining the buildings), and employee pay as well.  Marvel has an incredible (and incredibly huge) team that does these things every day, the little kickstarters of people's comics make very little money for the time put in (if at all) and are much more about the dream of your comic reaching other people.

The next Sentinels Comic that sells will be the first, the process is not going to be streamlined, and the numbers aren't going to be big.  They have bills to pay, this isn't 2010, they can't take the risks or make the barely profitable stuff they did to get going.

The only way this comic gets made is as a combo with something that can get numbers to pay for it.

I think the most likely way for it to happen is as a stretch goal in the next SotM expansion that isn't free, but is purchasable with the game so it could ship with it.

That way it can piggyback on the money, and the shipping change would be largely insignificant.  I think they could make sales that way.

It is sad, because the Kickstarter failure doesn't bode well for a sentinels comic series that can run independently and be profitable.  I would buy those comics, because I love these characters.

Not always the best way to go.

Therein lies the gamble. Distributing a digital copy that can be shared to a wide audience that may or may not continue to support future releases, or making opimal profit by selling the hard copy.

Personally speaking, I was hooked by playing enough games with my group. The "Let's Play Sentinels" series on Twitch is for sure an excellent cost-free way to generate interest. And you can certainly argue that the comics will do the same.

However, back to my original point, it was a pretty clear-cut issue that the comics cannot happen unless there is an investment in the project. That's the only reason why, in this case, it is important to support the creators. After that, then I would advocate sharing. And as someone else said on here, some of our friends want to read the comics, but don't want to back the project. That's pretty unfortunate.

I like the idea of having the comic as an "add-on" to the next SotM expansion, but I fear that the pairing of the comic with Conflict and its subsequent lack of interest has irreparably damaged >G's faith in and desire to produce it.

If it was a pre-ordered add-on it would probably be wise to take a Kickstarter-like approach to the comic part of it. If Paul says they need 1200 preorders for it to be economically viable then the comic only gets produced if they hit that number - any fewer and everyone gets refunded. Messy, but less risky.

Its been Updated just for you and people can go back and change thier answers

P500

I'm inclined to believe that video games work differently to board games, but either way I think it depends on whether you're looking at short-term or long-term profit, and if you care about "people who bought the game" or "people who bought the game and like it, or at least don't dislike it enough to post negative reviews about it all over the internet".

Do you want 100 customers to buy your game and have 25 hate it and slate it, or do you want only 75 to buy it and love it? Will those hypothetical 25 "hating" customers do damage to the brand/game worth more than the profit you made from them?

Both options are valid, I guess.

Of course thats the way Jesse Schell is going to see it. Look who he is.  I should find a link to some Lawrence Lessig lectures. Brilliant dude.  

Demos of video games are only being played by folks are are considering buying that product anyway. What new group are you reaching? You are just giving people who would buy it anyway the chance to opt out. Thats a very different dynamic than Silverleafs example of food/drink samples given to customers never intending to buy that product or who may have never heard of it. It's all about the context. What I was saying was not meant to be taken as a blanket statement.  

I did fund the hard copy of the comic.  I was disappointed that it got so little response.  My friends who got me into the game mirrored people’s sentiments that they didn’t want to support the Story Wars game, even if they did want the comic.  What surprises me is that they did not try to tie in the comic with the anniversary event.  If they had sign-ups and even donation info at the stores that will be holding the event, I think they would have gotten a ton of responses.

So with Just 1 day and 30 responses the numbers are backing what GTG feel there is not enough to justify spending the resorces to makeing a comic, 1500-2000 at an estamated $15 plus lets say $5 shipping so $20 total for a physical copy.

A PDF would genarate a better responce for $10 a pop and so far seems like a more valuable option 

Servey Results

There are still ads running on boardgamegeek for Sentinels Conflict.

I’ma go cry a little now. :’(

The kickstarter had much more exposure than your survey, though. Not really comparable, in my opinion.

A kickstarter in the right section has much more exposure, putting up a comic in the games section is not the best way of advertising it.

Completely agree.

Could post the link to the survey in the comments of the Kickstarter to see if anyone responds from there...

It's worth considering that perhaps putting up a comic-only Kickstarter in the comic section might have the added benefit of attracting comics fans who mightn't have heard of Sentinels of the Multiverse, not only to the comic but to the tabletop game.

Late to this party but I figured I'd throw my two cents in anyway.

The Story War "game" looked bad. 0 interest. Connecting the two was a gigantic mistake. The comic should have been attached to the WotC pre-order or the Sentinel Tactics KS.   Then the shipping charges would vanish as the comic just slides into a box that already has other stuff we want.

As for the comic itself. Of course I'm interested. But...

1> I always thought a big hardcover worldbook/encyclopedia would make the most sense. You can reuse a lot of art from the cards. Give a lot of story and character information we want in walls of text. And Make it a nice big 300 page hardcover with a $50-$60 pricetag.

2> I'm not sure the Sentinels art will translate well to a full action comic. The pages in Sentinel Tactics are fine for Tactics but not at comic book level. Too many empty backgrounds for a start.

3> There was no mention that I saw when I looked (on launch day?) of what kind of comic it was. Stapled?  Squarebound/"prestige" format with thicker cover or like a comic industry standard trade paperback? Or hardcover?   50 pages + no mention of it + a photo that looked like it had a staple meant I assumed this was a regular double-sized comic book issue.  That meant it was way too expensive when you include shipping and that I can't even store it properly on my shelf or handle it repeatedly.  Only way I want regular comic book issues is if they were released monthly - oh wait, even then I would wait for the TPBs at this point because that's what I've been trained to do.

In addition to all that, the unspoken problem is the absolute bath backers took on the Sentinel Tactics KS. With everything being sol at 60%+ off at online retailers just 2-3 months later, that's gonna leave a lot of people saying "I'll pass on this KS and just buy it later".

My suggestion is to finish the card game, release one or two more Tactics boxes to get all the heroes and villains and a handful of nextgenerations into miniature form, and then release a giant hardcover worldbook.

Have you already looked at the comic book that they did do?

I've seen this a couple of times both during and after the campaign, and I just don't understand.  GTG never kickstarts or preorders under any false pretenses - it is A:WAYS at full retail, so if you are kickstarting to "get a deal" you're going to get it cheaper buying it later.  That has always been thecase and they don't make any attempt to disguise that fact.  So I disagree that people "took a bath" when everyone could look at the financials of the KS and make that decision for themselves

The main problem with waiting to buy it later is that it may not get made if you make that choice and thus it won't even be available to buy later. I understand if it's already hit the funding goal but if it hasn't then the money you pledge isn't just to buy the comic, it's to help it get made in the first place.

If they try to do the comic again they could possibly do some things they did in previous kickstarters. Have levels to get yourself drawn into the comic, even if it's just some civilian in the bacground. Those are usually good ways to get some extra money pledged.

Kickstarter isn't about getting stuff cheaper, or getting free stuff/exclusives. It's about helping to get something made that wouldn't exist otherwise.

This ^ ^

I have no issue with paying full price (or even over full price) for a Kickstarter project, as the very nature of kickstarter is to get the product made in the first place. Plus, when you factor in stretch goals, it’s often worth that extras payment in my eyes.

That said, I had precisely 0 interest in Story War as a game and, while I’d love an actual SotM universe comic, I was quite reticent to back a game I want interested in just to get the comic.

An art book/world guide after the SotM game is complete, though? I’d gladly pay for that by itself, especially if it was hardbound. Include references to real-life comics, strategies and combos from Christopher, and the official canon SotM storyline complete with clues and hints left from the beginning? Count me in! Maybe something to consider if there’s another Tactics kickstarter?

Well there's a difference between backing a $60 something early at MSRP but getting it a bit early or with a cool extra and then it gets sold online at the standard 30% off MSRP for $40 so you spent an extra $20 and with backing something early at MSRP of $hundreds and it is very quickly 60-70% off and you spent an extra $100+.  For one example, I spent $31.17 to get WotC which is retailing for $23.26 at CSI. I got it the same day I would have from CSI (they had it in stock Monday) and I spent $8.00 extra but I got the promo cards (don't know if CSI has them or not) and the 3 art prints.  I spent EXTRA but I'm not crying about it because its $8.00. (Of course, with 4500 preorders I wouldnt be surprised to see WotC in online super sales soon either.) 

Another random example: I'll spend a 10% $2-$5 tip to get my food delivered so I don't have to leave my house. If I get $600 of groceries delivered I don't tip the delivery guy $60. 

If I would have bought Tactics+Uprising+minis during Black Friday sales and the painted minis now I would have had enough money to buy 2 other games. If I wait until the painted minis go on sale, I'd be even further ahead.  There's spending extra for convenience or for a good cause or to get things quicker, and then there's spending money wastefully.

It seems quite a few people agree that this "oh, you guys don't actually want the comic book" seems a little like a mis-reading of the situation. To me it almost feels a little "take our ball and going home". It doesn't take a cospiracy theorist to reason that its possible the comic was attached to Conflict as opposed to Tactics or Wotc specifically BECAUSE the comic was "in demand" and Story War wasn't.

I'm not saying there were false pretenses on the Tactics campaign, or that GTG are evil capitalists. What I'm saying is I might give them a couple of extra bucks in advance for a KS/preorder to make sure I get something, especially if they throw me a bone, but the same way they have to manage their budget, I have to manage mine, and if there aren't going to be better options than "same day delivery, no special promos/extras, full MSRP PLUS outrageous shipping" that there will be people backing off.  And it is my opinion that this is part of the reason why the latest kickstarter underperformed. It doesn't even matter if people are right or wrong about feeling they "took a bath" , if they feel that way it affects their actions. 

We all agree that in business you have to find a price point that maximizes profits right? Too low and you don't make enough per sale. Too high and you don't make enough sales. Those prices have little to do with actual "value" and everything to do with customer perception.  We already know from when WotC and Tactics launched that GTG has a customer price perception "problem". I'm just saying that its getting worse.  You say people can see the financials and make the decision for themselves. I agree. People decided not to back the next project.

I bet that if there was a "pre-order" put up for the comic book(s) with a "pay what you want" scheme for the PDF ($10 for the PDF is a bit high) and detailed information about the phsyical comic with a "Free shipping with your next GTG preorder" option that a lot more of the 4500 people who preordered WotC would jump in  and that GTG could set a goal total and reach it with room to spare.

Wow, you guys with your "standard 30% off MSRP" kill me.

Try living in the UK, where a game with a $100 price tag will usually cost you £100 despite the fact that $100 is actually about £65, and free shipping is rare. A 30% discount would be some kind of extreme closing-down sale or an otherwise unsellable ding-and-dent copy or a game that's sat in the store for years eating its head off and gathering dust.

When it comes to board games, Americans are horribly spoilt and entitled.

I imagine that the only way that >G could give people free shipping would be to increase the price of the game, and as an EU citizen who would get hit by customs/import taxes if this pushed the value over the threshold, I wouldn't be very happy about that.

Didnt you also get three FREE mini-expansions? That would likely retail for $12 or so?

It isn't just where board games are concerned.

Spot on. Every KS that >G does is followed by random price rants :yawn: Actually every KS ever is followed by this sort of thing, but the difference is that >G pile on so many extras that it has always balanced out for the end consumer. Not to mention all the free promo cards that are worth a fortune on the secondary market.

There are a lot of KS projects that price crash after publishing purely because that site is filled with vanity projects and half-finished games with worthless stretch goals. Because >G are serious about the publishing business they have used KS as it was intended to be - to give their business a push with funding and marketing, and to test consumer reaction to their products. SotM has proved to be an evergreen hit and the KS/Pre-order package has always been fairly priced with tangible stretch goals that have added genuine value.

Yay for >G I say

Yeah. The CSI prices for them are $13.49 for WotC, 3.49 for Guise and Wager-Master and 2.79 for Omnitron = $23.26.  I don't count shipping at online retailers because they all have a free shipping threshold. So those retail prices are $3.26 "more" but the $11.17 shipping from GTG is a thing. And I've never paid for shipping at CSI/MM/Cardhaus/etc because I just order 3-4 games at a time.  If GTG offered free shipping even if it was on bulk orders this conversation would pop up a lot less because their prices would be more in the "ballpark".

I think you're just going to have to get over the fact that >G aren't going to give anyone free shipping because shipping costs them money.

Those big retailers sell thousands upon thousands of games and thus can afford to take a hit on shipping, and offer those discounts, because they sell in such volume.

There's no way >G can take advantage of the same economies of scale. If they sold you Wrath for $20 with free shipping, how much exactly do you think would be left over after as profit?

Obviously I don't know the actual numbers for >G, but in general the actual cost of the product is 25% of the retail price. Say they've paid $5 for the game from the manufacturers. They'll sell it to retailers/distributors at wholesale, which is about $10. Someone has to be paid wages to package up a batch of games for each retailer. Marketing costs money. Profit per game out of the $5 that's left? Not very much, I imagine.

If they sell the game directly, they have to pay someone to package each individual game (more per game than withe the bulk order). They also have to advertise, deal with returns/replacements, buy/maintain equipment and storage, etc… and if you're expecting them to pay $10 for your free shipping, that remaining $5 isn't going to go very far to cover that. Let's say they make $2.50 per game if they pay for shipping (I'm making up the numbers, and I don't believe it would be as high as that) - they'd have to sell FIVE TIMES as many games to make the same profit as NOT paying for shipping. Unlikely to happen.

Personally, I'd like >G to stay in business, and that trumps my desire to buy uber-cheap games.

Also, sites like csi take a dive on some products because of the 100 free shipping. If they mmarkspme down to almost no profit (or even a loss) they are far more likely to get added to your 3-4 game pile for the free shipping. Chances are, over the hundreds of thousands of customers they have. A good chunk are buying something that is making them a lot of profit, and something at the same time that is not, and it balances in their favor. In fact, chances are better than good, because the site is still in business, despite comments from people like Christopher when SoTm goes on sale and he remarks “they must be loosing money selling it that low”. (Because of the understanding he didn’t sell it to them at an even lower price)

I have to echo this guy's opinion on the comic itself though -- I don't think the FF one was particularly great except as a vehicle for delivering more character background, which a Marvel Universe-style comic could probably do better.

Hell. Yes. Make this happen right now.

stevelabny wrote:

I think this would have a lot of people drooling. They would probably wait until all characters are released or do a Vol. 1 and 2 kinda thing