SCU Game 2 (Matriarch & Dinos) - Player Discussion and Commentary

Side topic for player discussion, commentary, etc. for the SCUverse Game 2.

Opted to put this up so that we can discuss developments, strategy, etc. without cluttering up the main thread.  And, within reason, I figure that non-players can comment here as well if they have a question or comment.

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Initial thoughts:

1) Unsure how the challenge will unfold from here.   The dinos will come out for certain.  Secondary question is how the villain deck develops.  I suspect it might just be hostile birds (sort of like a secondary environment deck) until a certain point - and then the Mask is found and the main villain appears and the game proceeds like normal from there.

2) Given the "draw two, play one" mod this makes the villain deck very capable of switching gears back and forth in terms of how many fowl come out in a row, or switching to short bursts and one-shots.  And the cohorts (and their DR) will probably be out quickly as well. 

3) Strategy -

a.  We might get an opportunity to set up a bit before everything hits.  Downside, is that this is a bit like Miss Information in that we also don't get a chance to hit the villain for a while either.   Bunker, Wraith, and AZ benefit since equipment destruction is not prevalent - couple of Environment cards and a possible way to avoid retaliation damage for killing fowl.  Though we have to be ready to take down Pterdactyl thieves quick since they'll take *all* the equipment.

b.  Once things get rolling it's a target-rich environment.  Matriarch retaliation (and Carrion Fields to a lesser extent) are going to be something to watch for.  DR helps, but not everyone has it.  So I think the main counter is having cards in hand to negate or reduce Matriarch's ability to deal damage - that would be Tachyon's Hypersonic Assault, Wraith's Throat Jab, and Wraith's Stun Bolts.  Wraith's Smoke Bombs will help against some fowl, or if the hero HP equalize. 

c. What is our general opinion going to be about Obsidian Fields?  Normally with 5 heroes the advantage might outweigh the extra damage villain and environment inflict.  Given the nature of this villain and the multiple instances of damage she inflicts I am not sure it is as beneficial.   However, we might also need the help getting past DR if one or both cohorts are in play.

I haven't played against her, so I'm not sure how this will go. 

Setup question for Envisioner: is the Mask just shuffled into the deck? Will the fowl start dealing damage before the Mask comes into play the first time? How about retaliation damage?

On my end as AZ, I'm just going to try to get set up as quickly as I can so that I've got my one-shots primed to deal damage once we need to go to town.

I'm with AZ, I've never played her so I might have some questions too. I am going to drop ammo drop next turn so I can get a few more guns while we kill crows. Another idea to avoid the retaliation is for legacy to get the next evolution lead from the front combo.

That would be one of the other methods.  There is also Legacy doing Heroic Interception while someone else is highest HP.  We just should keep some of the potential combinations in mind while making decisions regarding cards to keep during draws.

I have against the Matriarch only a few times myself.  And not with this general group of heroes either.

I guess a plus is not having to worry about destroying villain ongoing cards.  So those can get used on the dinos.

Another thought is after I draw the OmniCannon and another recharge mode, I turtle there for awhile and stay the highest hp, would be helped with a smoke bombs and a stunbolt. Just another option.

Apologies for the long radio silence; I was busy and out-of-it during the week, then when Saturday rolled around I found I had no Internet, and didn't get the issue fixed until today.  I will attempt to get things moving again.

The Mask will come into play when I decide the time is right - not until after at least one full round of just Environment havoc.  If I had it to do over again, I might have shuffled all the Fowl into the Environment deck and played that with the "draw two, pick one" rule, playing this deck on both Villain and Environment turns…without the Matriarch around, the Fowl don't play more of themselves, but if one came out during the environment turn, it would attack during the villain turn.  Since I played Round 1 normally, I will stick with my assumption that Matty takes normal villain turns in place of environment turns, but doesn't have the Mask and isn't a target…I'll probably use the draw-two rule veto any non-Fowl plays other than Carrion Fields, and stop playing new Fowl when I decide there are "enough" (no sense in putting them all out and having them die to an Accelerated Assault, then have Matty take several turns of doing nothing before she can reshuffle).

Did I ever officially accept Oaktree's suggestion about shuffling?  I honestly can't remember.  It seems like a decent idea with how much shuffling Matty does, but I'm not married to the idea in her case, given how experimental things already are.  Perhaps we should rule that it's only true for the heroes for now.

I don't recall seeing an official response on that.  Is that regarding my suggestion for in-game deck shuffling to only involve the unknown cards in the hero deck and not include those specifically sent to the bottom of the deck by the special rule?

And I didn't use the previous deck from Game 1 of Wraith for the start of this game.  I started with a fresh shuffle of everything and four cards since I wasn't sure how you wanted trash, in-play, and in-hand cards from a previous game carried over.

Oh, and if we're playing a sort of slow burn on the Matriarch coming out do you want to special rule fowl not being valid targets until they attack a hero first?  Example: Wraith can't start pinging birds as being hostile until they have attacked her.  Same for each hero, so it's possible for a few heroes to be slower to recognize the threat.  So, from a theatrical viewpoint, the bird threat can seen building (or at least collecting and acting ominously), and some heroes encounter it sooner than others.

That seems a little more fair because next turn Wraith and Bunker can take out 3 each, without a card play

Right now, the birds are not in play from a game perspective, though they exist as backdrop in the movie.  When Fowl cards enter play, they will represent actively hostile Fowl, and are valid targets for attack by any hero regardless of whether they've dealt any damage.  Retaliation damage for any Fowl killed will not apply while Lilian is not a target (except for Carrion Fields), so the chances are pretty much zero that any heroes are going to take damage from a Fowl before other targets exist.  I won't complain if the Throwing Knives and Grenade Launcher also take some HP off the Carrion Fields...it just means you're blowing up / slicing apart a few of the dinosaur corpses, scaring away the birds that were feasting on them.

Yes, Oaktree, that was what I meant.  Also you are not the only one who forgot the draw-six-put-back-two startup; Tachyon doesn't appear to have done it either.  We'll play it as it lies...I selected Obsidian Field for the first play rather than drawing cards at all, for flavor reasons, so in essence the Environment deck also "forgot" the rules for setup.  Matty, on the other hand, managed to luck into exactly the right card for an appropriate first play, so the only things on her side which are not normal-rules are that she isn't a target, doesn't have the Mask, and plays at a different point in the round.

Yea, I missed the "draw 6, keep 4" - but also ended up with four that were an almost ideal starting hand for Wraith since I got a couple of Impromptu Inventions in hand to work from.  Though, with the non-standard start having a couple of "Trust Fund" cards right off would have been a useful alternate.

(additional comment)

If it was a poor shuffle it was from a solo game since Wraith has been used in solo games and group games while Game 1 was going on, and after it completed as well.  If I needed the deck for the forum game I reconstructed it based on the last posted turn and then gave the "?" remaining deck a fresh shuffle.

And I always give each hero, villain, and environment decks fresh shuffles at the beginning of the game.  Though the only one I specifically go through to break up a card group is Baron Blade's since the three MDPs get grouped into his trash when he flips.

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We'll see how things turn out.  My good luck might be countered by someone else getting a crappy run of draws.  Or Insula Primalis will have a Rust Monster or two hidden away in the underbrush.

Tempted, very tempted…

Rust Monster? Please explain.

It's a D&D creature which eats metal.  (It's also an adorable plush toy, akin to Mr. Chomps.)  Don't worry about it, we're just joking around.

I see... Never played D&D so I've never heard of it. Thank BTW

It's pretty much one of the iconic D&D monsters.  Very odd looking and can't effectively hurt the PCs in terms of HP.  However, it can and will attack armor and metal weapons in order to eat them.  A bunch of unimpeded rust monsters would be a bit like a Technological Singularity - but without the lightning damage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust_monster

Wiki link includes illustration of it as I was first introduced to it.

I've got a commitment of sorts on Friday afternoon that may require the use of AZ (who is one of my son's two favorite heroes to play), but I should be able to revert to a physical deck after that. At least for a month or so after taht, there shouldn't be any portability issues – it'll just mean I can't do a turn on a Monday.

Well, I'll be busy dealing with Solomon Grundy that day, so it all works out....

Do we want to discuss our plan for when the mask comes out?

I feel like we need more information to make any concrete plans. If we just get to build up until the Mask comes out and reveals the Matriarch, then we'll just crush her, as we'll have some full rounds of build-up without significant interference.

Do you know what you are going to pull with impromptu invention?

My plan with the first one (just completed) ended up adding Utility Belt and Micro Targeting Computer to play.  Good and flexible for dino targets.

For the other two I am favoring using them to make sure I get two Stun Bolts into play.  IF I can use Utility Belt to put two of those into the Matriarch per turn I can take quite an edge off of her retaliation damage, get some damage past DR from cohorts, and use them on dinos if necessary.  If there is a turn where we don't need Stun Bolts due to another effect than it will be knives or something else for broader damage.

I will also be favoring getting a Mega Computer or two into play - I would like to take an edge off the potential environment damage from the T-rex and the toxic plant life.

We might also want to discuss how we feel about the Obsidian Fields.  The villain obviously benefits from them the turn after they come out.   We do as well, but they also will boost retaliation damage that both Carrion Fields and the Matriarch herself will be putting out. So it might be situational to destroy them at some point in the round; e.g. right before someone goes mass fowl wiping.  Thus we can agree that someone will be making a 2-card discard for this at the appropriate time.

An odd wrinkle to the switched villain and environment turns (which I'm still not sure was a good idea) is that you guys benefit from Obsidian Field for a full round before it can do anything for Matriarch, apart from retaliation damage.  This fight may well end up being a cakewalk, but then that possibility is the only reason I brought a Diff-4 villain out for our second match anyway.  The third one should be difficulty 2 or so.

Hey, Tachyon and AZ can you let me finish off the fields? I'm getting Ammo drop out and want all the draws I can get, especially now when I'm looking for the omni cannon and the flak one

I assume you mean the Carrion Fields, as the Obsidian Field is not worth a card to you....

You know that you don't have to be the one to kill something in order to benefit from Ammo Drop, right?

Tachyon, I think you're up.

Yeah, That's what I meant.

And Oaktree, if we need to, I will probably have extra cards to discard a few rounds in so I could destroy it before her turn if we don't need to kill it earlier.

EDIT: AZ I don't have ammo drop down yet, so if you kill the Carrion Fields before my turn I won't get the draw.

Aha. That wasn't clear, maybe because I hadn't checked the game thread in detail.

If you mange to keep that out when someone goes fowl-slaying you're gonna get buried in draws. 

I still think that the PBF format leaves something to be desired, and that we could benefit greatly from having some sort of software that would display a constantly updated virtual game table in the OP.  It wouldn't need to have the art, but it should at least display cards as cards with a bit of color-coding, and update numbers dynamically as they're posted in the thread.

No amount of scrolling up and down the page can make up for being able to just SEE everything laid out where it belongs.

Yeah, Oaktree That's the goal. Then I can charge Omnicannon as I go and still contribute by giving modes for ongoing destruction

I am also curious how this match is going to play out.  If AZ and Bunker get set-up I half-suspect that it will be a very short, but intense, fire-fight.  Especially if the Obsidian Fields are still around the heroes may decide to forego extended defense for something that lasts for a round like Hypersonic Assault while everyone just hammers the Matriarch into putty. 

With "Draw 2 - Play 1" I don't expect the environment to play many dud cards and it should escalate quickly to help act as a distraction; e.g. I expect the Raptor pack that just got squashed to be the last easy target we see there - it will be the Rex Brothers and the Toxic Plants or Erupting Volcano stuff.  Though the last is more of a climactic event, and also less annoying to stop in a 5-hero game as compared to a 3-hero game.  If a "weak" environment card comes out it probably indicates you drew two weak ones and did not have much choice.

And this really isn't the ideal combo of villain and environment for reversing their order.  If the environment had a card that played the top card of the villain deck then things would be a lot edgier for the heroes since an environment card could trigger a flock of fowl cards to come out right before the villain turn began with no way for the heroes to kill them first.  (At which point I would expect the heroes to concentrate heavier on DR, redirect, etc. plays simply to prevent getting mangled by this.)

I actually picked raptors over River of Lava for dramatic reasons.  However, since there's no chance of the raptors building up as long as you have no villain, I'm debating having each new Raptor Pack that enters play also bring all the previous ones back from the trash, so that the pack just grows and grows until reaching the full 18-damage swarm (not counting the Obsidian).  That would be significantly less pathetic than what we have now.

Holy hell, this is going to be a short game.  Maybe the Matriarch ought to just run away and plan her revenge now, not bother with the actual fight.

Oh wow, 3 Fleet of Foots coming next turn...

OK folks - here comes the first wave.

10 fowl in play and two Carrion Fields active - they will both retaliate for 2 toxic (1 + 1 for Obsidian Field) whenever a fowl is killed.  Plus a Pteradactyl Thief that needs to be taken out.

If I follow previous plan and use turn to roll out at least one Stun Bolt via an Impromptu Invention play I intend on doing the following:

a. Stun Bolt into 15-HP Carrion Field (this will reduce it's retaliation damage from 2 to 1.)

b. Throwing Knives into the 4-HP Carrion Field, the Pteradactyl Thief, and a fowl - My Stealth in effect will reduce the Carrion Field retaliation to zero.

=

I'm after Legacy of course, so targets might shift depending on what happens.  If someone wants the Obsidian Field destroyed before their action please indicate so as soon as possible so that the discards can be taken into account and that no one after that player expects to take advantage of the Obsidian Field still being there.

I didn't have better plays, so I took out the low Carrion Field and the Thief and damaged the other Carrion Field. Remember that the Carrion Field deals retaliation damage to everyone but the highest HP (which is Legacy).

I believe that if AZ plays a Fueled Freeze and destroys 0 Ongoing cards, it would still take out all the Fowl, due to the various damage boosts. Of course he'd rather complete his buildup, so an Accelerated Assault from Tachyon would be great.

I can also kill them all with external combustion if you guys can get the carrion field down to 5 health

Actually, I can get it from 6 health. Thats what I get from not reading the card before I post.

Ideally we can take out the Fowl without you having to hit yourself.

I do feel like it would be better to take out the Obsidian Fields. We're already getting obscene amounts of damage boost, and I think the Obsidian will mostly help the environment and villain (when she comes back).

I can discard 2 on my turn, especially if we can get the birds dead this round, to get rid of Obsidian Fields

OK.  Due to Legacy's work I was able to drop the second Carrion Field *and* two fowl without any retribution.  So the fowl are temporarily fair game.

I took out the Jackdaws since they do everyone 1 point damage. If we have to leave any fowl alive this turn leave the first Kettle of Vultures alive.  If Wraith is still low HP when its turn comes then Stealth will block it - - assuming nothing from the environment hits her first.

One thing to remember is that these birds will be back.  The Matriarch herself is not a target, and her "fowl from trash" one-shots will come back around quickly.  So we might want to save flock-killing one-shots for later rounds.  But, of course, we also don't want to leave a half dozen of them alive to pound on us either.  I guess all I am advocating is that we don't spend one-shots on part of the flock when a later player plans on sweeping them all anyways.

And I concur with Bunker discarding on his turn to get rid of the Obsidian Field.

(Fingers crossed for Bunker to get good draws.)

Right now, my best one-shots are single-target. I'm probably drawing two rather than playing anything. -- AZ

I’m happy. I have all the cards I was looking for. I’m going to suggest legacy plays next evolution next turn so we can kill the birds without retribution.
I can take out 3 birds on my turn. Let me know which ones you think are best.

AZ and Bunker have three draws pending before their turns.

However, assuming AZ draws two and Bunker kills three with Grenade Launcher I suggest killing the Raven and the two Crows.  By my calculation the remaining birds (3 Rooks and 2 Crows) will hit Legacy for 4, Bunker for 2, and Wraith for 2.  (Barring an environment attack on Wraith - if that occurs then she will take 4.)

[I basically built a little cross reference grid of the heroes HP and the birds in order and calculated HP loss as the birds did their turns.  Then I eliminated the birds that were inflicting the most damage (4).  Ended up with two heroes at 28 HP, two at 27, and 1 at 24.  If Bunker plays Heavy Plating then he will be at 28 at well.  If AZ kills one of the Rooks he stays at 29 HP and is high HP of the heroes going to the Villain turn.]

If legs stays at highest health, he can play next evolution and we don’t have to worry about retribution

Well, I took the draw, but Tachyon helped out by letting me effectively get 4 cards instead of two.

I think I'm putting down the NPCU next time, assuming that Lillian hasn't gone all psycho on us. Maybe even then, although I can start dealing out the hurt after that.

Humble-Knight: I did a quick count and I think your deck count was off by 4; so unknown is 6? instead of 10?

Don't know if this is a useful suggestion, but I keep a text file with my turn information in it.  I adjust that file and then paste it into the comment box.  Bold a few things, perhaps add a comment, and then submit it.  Doing something like that might give you a little more space to work with.  Once I post a turn I then update the text file to prep for the next turn; e.g. changes in hand, trash, at the top to match the end from the last turn.

I was doing it on my tablet so editing is a pain regardless of if I have a post to edit or not. I will change the card count.

Because the mask is probably coming out this turn, as well as a darken the sky, is tach going to use a hypersonic assault? I’d like to go into upgrade mode for a couple of turns, but I won’t if you need my damage.

If Matty comes out, I'll Hypersonic; if not, I'll use Accelerated Assault. Either way, feel free to upgrade.

Matriarch and swarm of birds are in play.  Meerkat has indicated that a Hypersonic will be played to clear the flock and prevent further mayhem for a turn (barring the environment).  And the Hypersonic will remove the birds.

I haven't checked, but I presume the on-going loss is going to probably include Inspiring Presence and Ammo Drop.  That's going to be a recurring effect I think. 

Between Throwing Knives and Stun Bolt I can hit Matty, the Mask, and the Raptor Pack for 3 each; and one of the three for 3 more.  Do we want to concentrate on Matty damage now or taking out the Mask to slow down villain card plays a bit?  And if we knock all the birds off I don't think we want the Raptor Pack around as well since it has a chance of doubling up to be two packs.

For my play I'll either do Trust Fund to get more cards in hand (Razor Ordnance and Smoke Bombs hopefully), or I can play another Mega Computer to help nerf the environment deck damage further.

I think we should make sure to take out the Mask; extra plays are a high priority. But I also think that Stunning the Matriarch is important for damage handling. I don't think we should have a problem taking out the Mask this round.

How many Ongoings are there in play, anyway? Do we get to keep any?

I think we only had four: Inspiring Presence, Danger Sense, Research Grant, and Ammo Drop.  So none left.  Everything Wraith has in play is equipment and I think the same is true for AZ.  Tachyon should have HUD Goggles still and Bunker the Plating and Grenade Launcher.

The Hypersonic by Tachyon should take care of Matriarch damage for this turn as well as the flock.

I can hit Matriarch for 3, Mask for 6, and Raptor Pack for 3.  Hypersonic will damage all of them for 1 more as well.  IF Legacy does Galvanize that will total up to 6 on Matriarch, 10 (kill) the Mask, and 6 (kill) the Raptor Pack between Tachyon and Wraith.  Without Galvanize we will need Legacy, Bunker, or AZ to make some sort of attack if we want to kill the Mask and Raptor pack this turn.

I think Tachyon should hold onto Accelerated Assault.  That might be valuable for a flock kill later on, and on that turn Wraith can play a Throat Jab on the Matriarch for retaliation prevention assuming the cohorts aren't in play and ramping up DR too much.

I just noticed that the Matriarch herself is not in play yet. I don't know that this effects anything.

On my end, I'm now as set up as I NEED to be, and can start using one-shots to deal damage. If we get Lava or a volcano, the Coolant Blast drops.

In the last turn she is not marked as (Not a Target), and she also just did 3 sonic damage to everyone.

My mistake, sorry! I was looking for her HP in the wrong place.

Turn updated.  I opted to put the 2nd Mega Computer in play as a way to nerf the environment damage a little further since the Toxic Plants and the T-Rex are out there.  I also have two Grappling Hooks available as one-shots to take out environment targets since the Matriarch does not play on-going cards.  And I won't mind playing the Grappling Hooks since they also give me a card draw.

No Smoke Bombs yet, so if the play phase next turn is not needed for anything immediately vital I will favor playing Trust Fund in order to go fishing through about half of my currently unknown cards after Smoke Bombs, Razor Ordnance, or another Throat Jab.  And if I really want a particular piece of equipment I still an one Impromptu Invention left to play.

Are we confident enough in our high HP heroes tanking to want to put Smoke Bombs into play?  It's not a conditional effect.

New Round has begun. 

I believe the plan for handling the flock this turn is Wraith to Throat Jab the Matriarch and Tachyon to do an Accelerated Assault to knock out the birds without retaliation.  Similar to last turn I will use Stun Bolt and Throwing Knives on the Mask, Matriarch, and leftover damage on the poor Raptors.

Environment deck is -2 damage at this point, which I think reduces its threat considerably.  That stopped the Raptors from chomping a bird, but Tachyon is going to kill the whole flock anyways.

I'm going to do something else anyway, but I'm pretty confused by this comment:

The only way for me to make sense of that is to think that Lead From the Front is conditional on hero HP, but it's not.

That would be assuming that you were playing Lead Front The Front first since you do not have it currently in play.  If you currently had the highest HP you would not have to do that since Matriarch's retaliation damage hits the hero with the highest HP.  If you're were highest, and Envisoner's list on the villain turn incorrectly had yours listed as the highest, then you could potentially activate [Final - oops!] Next Evolution while playing a different card.

Got it, thanks! For the record, Next Evolution is the card in question. Only Iron Legacy has a Final Evolution.

Matriarch is still stunned until Tachyon's turn.  No damage to Legacy for playing Take Down. 

Thanks, fixed. This is looking to be a short game...

Yep, it was clear pretty quickly that Matty was going to get facerolled; not existing on those first couple turns was a pretty serious tactical error on her part with all the Equipment that was going into play.  I debated restarting the game from the beginning when she showed up, but decided against it.  Oh well, like I said, I didn't really want her to be super-difficult, since this game is so early in the "movie" series.

Think I'd better start planning ahead for game 4....

Well, they often say that middle or second movies of a lot of franchises are weaker efforts. 

We can kill her next round. Between 3 Light speed barrage omni cannon and what ever else you guys can do we should win handily

I kinda don't want to play anymore… 

Start gearing up for game 4?

Maybe The Matriarch can concede in a thematic way?

Even better - have her escape?

It's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you'll beat her, so I don't really feel up to going and getting the decks to find out what the last Environment play will be, since even if it was a T-Rex it wouldn't be able to influence the outcome significantly.

(The line where Matty claims that she's controlling the dinosaurs is unfortunately pure megalomania on her part.  It'd definitely make an interesting alternate scenario to try sometime though.  Lots of ideas as to how to make this match work better in future.)

All Dinosaurs count as fowl.

Best idea ever.

Or the Fowl are all supper-advanced flying stealth dinosaurs.

Whoa!  No birds with evening meal technology, that's illegal.

You're just threatened by a strong therapod role model…

Hi everyone, I'm one of Envisioner's real-world friends.  He asked me to sign up for this site so I could take over running the SCU games for him, if everyone's cool with that.