Had a pretty funny ending to my last Oblivaeon game. The card Repentative of Earth was played by Celestial Tribunal and Oblivaeon hit it with Temporal Fractures moving the representative to Mordengrad. The next turn Oblivaeon destroyed Mordengrad by incapacitating the representative. A round later the Celestial Tribunal brought Representative of Earth out again and Voss dealt it something like 18 damage to destroy the multiverse.
He... moved the Representative? O.o How does that even work?
I'm guessing he moves a hero target, which the Representative counts as...
Very interesting but also very odd. Does the Representative of Earth environment card also get moved, or just the hero target? If it’s only the hero target, my first thought is that even if the hero is incapped in Mordengrad, it should be the Celestial Tribunal that gets destroyed, not Mordengrad since the RoE card is still in Celestial Tribunal.
Temporal Fractures affects hero character cards. It moved the Representative of Earth Card as well as F5 Legacy (the hero I had picked). I wasn't sure which environment would be destroyed, I was hoping it would be Celestial Tribunal since all my heroes were in Mordengrad, but figured Mordengrad was more likely since that's the battle zone the Environmental Loss condition had happened in.
I think I’d expect Mordengrad to be Destroyed in that instance - representative of earth is just a lose condition and a OblivAeon makes lose conditions into environment destruction instead. Nothing about representative of Earth links it specifically to destroying Tribunal if it isn’t there. Weird one though!
I agree, if the RoE card got moved with the Hero to Mordengrad, then destroying Mordengrad seems correct.
The follow-up question is then, should RoE move zones along with the Hero card?
Doesn’t seem to be any specific wording that requires RoE to stay with the attached Hero card. But I can see how it would cause problems if they did get separated. Is this an upcoming Fireside chat rule/clarification?
Trying to come up with the correct behavior for this situation that also satisfies the idea that the two battle zones behave like two separate games is really breaking my head...
The best thing I can think of is that the Representative just becomes a random hero target in Mordengrad, doing nothing, while the Tribunal just keeps coming up null on its checks because there is no Representative as far as it knows?
Here’s another follow-up question:
When Mordengrad was destroyed did RofE stay in play? According to the Oblivaeon rules, only Mordengrad’s cards should have been removed from the game. And yet if the Hero was incapped not sure it makes sense to keep RoE in play.
Here's an unofficial fireside chat preview! We'll be getting those all together once more bugs are fixed and we have time to collect them up.
If OblivAeon deals damage to the Representative of Earth via Disrupt Spacetime (“move any heroes damaged this way to the other Battle Zone”) then, that hero and the Representative of Earth card go on a trip! They live in that other environment until something sends them back. If/when Representative of Earth gets destroyed, it returns to its proper trash pile. If the Game Over effect occurs, it takes place in that Battle Zone, destroying the other environment rather than the Celestial Tribunal.
Nice, thanks MigrantP!
Does there also need to be wording along the lines of “If the Game Over effect occurs and Celestial Tribunal was not destroyed, destroy Representative of Earth (and return it to its proper trash)”?
That is what happens.
I like this. :D
So you could have the countdown timer reach zero and destroy an environment, dealing 20 irreducible damage to the Representative of Earth and the Propulsion Systems at the same time, and lose 3 environments all at once... and then have 12 Devastation tokens in the pool and lose the entire game in a single start-of-turn phase.
You could, if you blindly clicked things or did not know what was coming.
If the Representative is killed first then the MDP Environment will be removed before the Propulsion System is hit...
Hmmmm, going to have to try a thing and get back to this question. On looking at the rules I'm pretty sure the Environment that needs to be removed is not the one in the Representaitve is in but always the Celestial Tribunal (unless the rules are updated, I'm working from a pretty old PDF of them here).
From MigrantP:
If OblivAeon deals damage to the Representative of Earth via Disrupt Spacetime (“move any heroes damaged this way to the other Battle Zone”) then, that hero and the Representative of Earth card go on a trip! They live in that other environment until something sends them back. If/when Representative of Earth gets destroyed, it returns to its proper trash pile. If the Game Over effect occurs, it takes place in that Battle Zone, destroying the other environment rather than the Celestial Tribunal.
Get that, but the rules specify that "The game does not end if an Environment's "Game Over" condition occurs. Instead, all cards from that Environment's Deck are removed from the game, regardless of what Battle Zone they are in. It might be yet another exception but the rules are pretty clear that it kills all the cards of the deck it belongs too no matter where they are so I don't think you can have the Representative die twice.
The Representative of the Earth is part of the Celestial Tribunal.
If the “Game Over” condition happens in eg. Rook City, the Representative of the Earth card doesn’t belong to the Rook City Environment. So the card goes back to the Celestial Tribunal trash. Because the Rook City cards are all removed from the game, and Representative of the Earth isn’t a Rook City Card.
I think you’ve misunderstood Matchickman’s point. He’s saying that regardless of where the Representative of Earth is when it’s destroyed, destroying it is a “game over” condition for the Celestial Tribunal, not for any other environment, so it should be the Celestial Tribunal that is removed from the game, not the environment the Represeantative happens to be in.
I believe this might actually go back to the “cards cannot affect things in another battle zone” issue. Regardless of what deck the card is from, the card has a game over condition and is in a specific battle zone. It can’t declare a Game Over condition (thus removing an environment) in the other battle zone, as it doesn’t explicitly mention another battle zone.
Yep, that’s my point but I believe the opposite of what you are saying because the relevant rules specifically call out both Battle Zones
“The game does not end if an Environment’s “Game Over” condition occurs. Instead, all cards from that Environment’s Deck are removed from the game, regardless of what Battle Zone they are in.”
The Representative of Earth is from the The Celestial Tribunal deck, not the MDP, so all cards from that Environment’s Deck should be removed, not neccessarily the deck of the Environment of the Battle Zone it happens to be in- though OblivAeon would still move to the Battle Zone where the Game Over card happened to be situated.
Hmm, you're making me want to buck the whole system and say that since the Representative of Earth and the hero target associated are now in two different Battle Zones, the target can't be tracked by that card (Like Stun Bolts. It can't keep tracking the trigger "would deal damage"), and therefore can't actually detect when that hero is incapacitated and thus, will never trigger the Game Over text, unless that hero comes back to the CT battle zone. Consequently, with my new stance, if the RoE card leaves play while the other hero is not in the same battle zone, then that hero doesn't go back in the box.
I understand that Christopher and Handelabra have reached an accord for ease of use (can't have cards floating without a play area/associated card), but this might be the first time that I explicitly houserule against the digital version, as I think it's funnier to view the rules as explicitly written. The Celestial Tribunal has put someone on trial, are going through their proceedings, and then Oblivaeon comes out of nowhere, punches that hero through reality, and then leaves. The CT is then left to scratch their heads and declare recess while they wait for the summons they put out to pull that hero back so they can resume trial.
With the digital acommodation, the ROE card is not in the CT environment when it pops. Period. It is, for all intents and purposes, part of the other battle zone's Environment. It is in the environment zone of the other environment, so it is part of the other environment. The game over effect takes place in an Environment, not in a deck. It's the difference between saying
"[...]Instead, all cards from that Environment's Deck are removed [...]"
and
"[...]Instead, all cards from that Environment Card's Deck are removed [...]"