Darkwatch Synergy

Now that we finally have the complete (pre-Oblivaeon) Darkwatch team in the video game I've been trying to figure out how to get them to work together. Their base powers don't seem to provide much synergy aside from Setback being able to mitigate some of the damage Nightmist deals herself and Nightmist being able to stack her deck so that Fumbling Fool won't negatively affect her. Darkwatch Fixer punches hard and than breaks his team's stuff, and Darkwatch Expatriette boosts her own damage by 1 until the end of next turn.

So my question is, what are some of the strategies used to transform this team from a bunch of individuals into a well oiled machine like the Freedom V and the Prime Wardens?

Combo's I've already discovered either here or in play:

[Mr. Fixer]Jack Handle (Dual Crowbars) + [Setback]Friendly Fire

[Setback]Wrong Time and Place + [Nightmist]Obliveon

[Setback]Wrong Time and Place + [Nightmist]Any self damaging spell

Some strategies I've figured out through play:

Enlightenment and Surprising Fortune works nicely for equipment starved Mr. Fixer and Expatriette.

Turn of Events can help provide a nice little damage boost for a fully loaded Expatriette the turn before she Unloads.

A 4/4 Obliveon turns into a 20 point nuke to the main villain with Wrong Time and Place and a pool full of tokens [16 minimum] (easier with Friendly Fire to help mitigate the token loss [8 minimum]).

Speed Load keeps Mr. Fixer in ammo to destroy.

DW Fixer is also good for getting rid of Setback's ongoings that he either doesn't need anymore or might want gone before the villain turn (WTAP when he's short of tokens or High Risk Behavior when he has a lot).

Expatriette and Setback are both extrememly Fixer-Friendly.
As you mentioned, Mr. F loves Speed Loading, but also Expat has so many guns that it’s usually ok to destroy some here and there. Fixer reciprocates by playing Salvage Yard to get them all back.
On Setback’s part, notice that a sum total of ZERO of his cards are limited. This means you can throw out multiple copies of Looking Up or Surprising Fortune just so they can be destroyed. And of course there’s the damage combos that you’ve already noticed.
Nightmist and Fixer are friends too. With all the cards she puts into her own trash, she loves a good Salvage. She also can Enlighten Expatriette so that you have a better chance of getting the guns and ammo you really want. Plus, all of them have cards to reduce or redirect that Oblivion damage.

I tend to find that original Setback has better synergy with DW Fixer. Fixer can really feed on the extra ongoings it brings and do quality assurance with it. In fact I tend to find Nightmist's and Setback's original power more in tune with my playstyle. Salvage Yard is extremely good for Nightmist and Expat as those extra cards in hand are really nifty. That said DW Setback has the best synergy with low defence heroes. He can do a great job increasing the survivability of Parse, Golem Unity or a Hunter and Hunted Chrono. They shine as a team that welcomes guest stars.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but are Speed Loading and Heedless Lash the only ways for any member of the Dark Watch to play multiple cards per turn?

If you want to see some really great synergy add Sky-Scraper as a guest star.

Compulsion Canister on Fixer
Micro Assembler on Expat. or NightMist
Links are great for destruction by Fixer and Setback and are easy to recover.
Wrong Time and place plus Thorathain Monolith.
Destroy Ongoings which Setback doesn’t want anymore.

Salvage Yard lets you play Overdrive… not sure if that counts… Yeah, Dark Watch vs.Spite is pretty miserable.

You mentioned Surprising Fortune to help Expatriette and Fixer, but I've also found that Surprising Fortune can help Nightmist a lot.  It can keep her card count up if she's using the Amulet and give her extra fuel if she's using the Talisman (or a little of both).  I admit that it doesn't synergize a ton with her base power, but I usually switch to Tome at some point with her.

Although learning new ways to synergize with other heroes is always interesting, I'd like to keep this discussion focused on games played with only members of the Darkwatch team.

With Darkwatch Nightmist, I've found the normal strategy of hide behind the Amulet just isn't as effective. I normally prioritize Master of Magic with her over the Amulet and tend to use her Elder Ring more. With Setback's Mitigate triggered before her turn I find I don't have to many issues with her self damage. I have started to use more of her cards for their actual effect instead of as food for the Amulet.

I'm learning her base power is more than just stacking the deck in your favor. It's about drilling 3 cards deep into your deck to quickly find a card which will be useful for the situation. and than stacking your deck. Setback have Fumbling Fool and you don't see anything useful? Pick the best of the worst to put on top for your draw and place the worst (looking at you Mist of Time) to be your top card. Now when it comes back to Nightmist she'll have 2 new cards to choose from. 3 if you've used the sparkle of the last card to cast a spell.

I hadn't considered the non-limited nature of Setbacks deck. He and Expat would be pretty good for feeding Fixer.

Yeah, everything has to be not-limited, to avoid any confusion with his normal "play the top card of your deck" mechanic.

"Has to" may be too strong of a term.  I mean, Guise can use his ability just fine, and he has all sorts of limited stuff.  And there are several other situations where limited cards are forcibly put into play.  But it does admittedly make things less confusing.

Guise doesn't have a mechanic in his deck to automatically force something into play, though. Whereas Setback's whole schtick is that his power is risky -- if there's cards in there that can't go into play at any moment, whether he wants them or not, his deck is then inherently less risky.

Mr. Fixer (any form) + Crowbar + Nightmist with Amulet of the Elder Gods:

Mr. Fixer hits one target for X damage.  Mr. Fixer hits Nightmist, who redirects to the same target for some crazy 2X + Y damage.

Setback with Turn of Events with normal Expatriette.  She plays "Load" with "Unload" and nukes the enemy team with all her guns.  And the rest of the team gets to go, too!

Setback's Turn of Events + DW Expatriette + Hair Trigger = +1 more damage to all the incoming things.

A few Fumbling Fools + Salvage Yard can possible put some good equipment into peoples' hands and play an Overdrive.

Salvage Yard + ammos in trash means Expatriette gets to reload her guns.

Incapped Mr. Fixer + Flak Jacket makes Expatriette immune to one attack of 3 or greater each round.

Against a single target, RPG Launcher + Driving Mantis means the fire damage gets to hit the same target twice.

Santa does. He made a valid point, which I hadn't considered. Same with Temperence Fanatic. And The Scholar.

At first I was like, "what does this have to do with anything?" But then I realized, you were on topic, and I was off-topic…

I've found that the team order matters a great deal for DW. 

Expat goes first to mark targets, debuff enemies, or to set up her next round (if she has no guns). This lets her get the most benefit from the team members that allow for card draw early on in the game, as well as giving fixer more fodder for the bitter strike. As a side note, I've found that it can be immensely useful to use Cryo ammo on Setback or Nightmist every so often- keeps them from hurting themselves or the team. Especially with a 1 point Oblivion, or if nightmist has an elder ring out. 

Setback goes next. He's got a bit of everything, so he can clean up after expat, feed fixer, remove pesky ongoings, heal the team, and (if you get lucky) put out a stupefying amount of damage. I prefer to use his base power on Nightmist- it allows DW nightmist to be a lot riskier and more aggressive. Turn of events needs to be used judiciously, but pick your moment and you'll get a LOT out of it. With DW Setback, I tend to prioritize surprising fortune, since it gives more cards to those who need it.  But you always need to be prepared to adjust to circumstances with Setback.  Getting locked into one style or searching for that one perfect card tends to backfire.  

DW nightmist requires planning. You are going to be using her spells a LOT more, so Master of Magic is a huge boon early on. It's going to be tempting to go into must form to build up a large hand, but (in general) try to resist the impulse to hide. DW nightmist is all about thinking one step ahead, so if you use that Mist Form, have a plan for getting out of it. Unlike regular Nightmist, DW doesn't really shine as the last hero standing. You can, but you'll run out of cards faster, which limits your survivability. Her enlightens work wonders on Fixer and expat, and you can get a LOT of mileage out of the book early on. Basically, once you have spells, go on the attack. DW Setback will help keep you safe from your own damage, feed you extra cards, and heal you by cashing out. In return, support your team with raw damage, mist form tanking, and support in the form of enlightened card draws or astral enemy deck scouting. Just resist the urge to hide. 

DW fixer goes last. This lets him scavenge ongoings and puts him in prime position to benefit from unexpected Setback antics (like fumbling fool discarding a great tool when you have a salvage yard), gain cards from allies, and finish off enemies that were wounded by teammates. Go with the flow. Play whatever hits the hardest, and (unless you have a specific plan of attack), focus entirely on offense against the highest HP target. Eat your own things first (unless you have a tool or style you like), and occasionally whack your teammates with the crowbars to amp up your damage in the absence of other villain targets. 

This specific configuration gives Dark Watch a lot more flexibility and synergy. Or at least that's what I've found. They aren't unbeatable, but they are a lot nastier than they might initially seem, and you can take on just about any enemy (though fighting in Rook City always is harder!). I tend to find that Setback is the key for the entire team- he is a marvelous support and damage dealer... And if he's doing well the team will prosper. If he doesn't... well, that's what enlightenment or the occasional crowbar is for. 

So what you're saying is either give Setback bright ideas or beat them out of him?

Or just trust that it'll all work out. 

The thing about a lot of the synergies being posted is that they're either card-card synergies, or simply weakness mitigations.  These heroes certainly can work well together, but I don't see anything that suggests the DW variants work better together (or even as well) as the standard variants.  Generally it seems like (with the possible exeption of expat, and sometimes fixer), the DW variants are weaker than the originals. Sure surprising fortune can make DW nightmist suck less, but it can just as easily enable better aggression from standard nightmist. Sure DW fixer can clear unwanted ongoings, but more often, his increased damage is simply not worth the cost of undoing card plays.  Can anyone explain to me why DW as a team might be preferable with its variants as opposed to the originals?

Can you tell me 3 cards that are together, better than dealing 5 damage to all non-hero targets every round for the cost of 1 additional card each round? Oh and some rounds you get 7 damage, for no additional card. I think Dark Watch Mr. Fixer is stronger than the original version; I'm happy to play either though.

Defensive Blast + Galvanize and/or Inspiring Presence. That’s just 2 cards, plus the platings to discard. (Sure, you need a plating, but it serves another purpose as well, so I’m not counting it as part of the combo.)

Without any damage buffs, that’s 4 damage to all non-hero targets. With, it’s 8 or 12. 16 if you’re fighting Omnitron.

That’s not the point, though.

Sure, he does more damage than Vanilla Fixer, but that’s not all that makes someone better. The fact that he slows down your setup means that you HAVE to throw away cards to feed his engine. It’s not just costing you a card every round, it’s also costing you the benefit of whatever that card did, so you’re paying in the opportunity that card would have given you. Opportunity cost, man.

I agree, tbh. Fixer has his uses, and Expat is better, but Setback and NightMist are pretty bad, imo. I’d rather use the originals.
Now, HARPY, on the other hand… A damage power vs a play a card power? That’s an easy choice, even without taking the deck into consideration.

DW variants overall feels more like a team that is about planning and overall taking less risk.   Personally I would play it DW Fixer and DW Expat with the normal versions of Setback and Nightmist.  

I see the variants as addition by subtraction. They take away the usual crutches and force you to apply a new strategy.

With DW Nightmist you can no longer spend your time hiding behind the amulet, hoarding cards for discards instead of using them. If you do this with DW Nightmist of course she’ll suck.
With this version of Nightmist Master of Magic is prioritized over the amulet, Tome of Elder Magic keeps you in spells, Enlightenment now gets used on other team members, Elder Ring actually gets played, Scouring Mists isnt a 4 letter word and Oblivion is just so much better when you can contol it.

With DW Fixer, sure you’re destroying 1 or 2 cards each round, but honestly by mid-game who doesnt have spare crap to destroy? Also Jackhandle + Grease Monkey Fist + Harmony + Bloody Knuckles (safely destroyed after or held so that Setback can let him do it again)…nuff said.

With DW Expat, honestly I dont see much difference except you dont get setup as fast. That damage boost can be pretty nice when combined with the machine gun and shock rounds. Or during an Unload.

With DW Setback, as much as people disrespect it, Mitigate is useful for Nightmist to limit her self damage or for Mr. Fixer to lower damage just enough to trigger Driving Mantis. Admittedly that last is highly situational. Also with DW Setback you’re never in danger of accidently destroying anyone elses stuff or killing yourself with a Cause and Effect.

How about 3 cards that can be found on the team we're talking about in this thread?

That is exactly what I'm talking about, and I explicitly included the "benefit of whatever that card did" in my question by asking which 3 cards are better. That's considering the opportunity of using those cards instead of destroying them for setting up a damage tornado.

My point is that most sets of 3 cards are not worth as much as that damage tornado.

Thanks for keeping the conversation cool, folks, and respecting other peoples' opinions.

What I love is that the variants create different styles of play. I don't necessarily see them as better or worse, more as different. Since we each prefer different styles of play, we will perceive the different variants as better or worse based on our own preferences.

I'm not saying there aren't variants that are clearly worse or better than others, just that I think many of the difference are in our peceptions and preferences.

No question that Harmony + Jack Handle + Grease Monkey fist is beastly with DW fixer, and probably worth the extra card cost, but a couple of things to keep in mind: First, without someone granting you extra card plays, the earliest you can have that combo is turn 3, and that’s if you’re lucky enough to get all three of those cards by then (which you usually won’t be). Also, while many heroes have excellent one-shots and a few have an abundance of low-value ongoings/equipments, ongoing and equipment cards tend to be a hero’s strongest, most important cards, so simply saying that it costs “one more card” is misleading. It’s also worth pointing out that his power doesn’t just cost an extra card, it costs an extra card play, which is a major tempo hit. What’s more, to get them all three out at the same time, you either have to skip your power phase in previous rounds, or destroy another hero’s card, which slows down their setup during the crucial early turns. Most of the other heroes who require significant setup time before they can start to contribute much (Absolute zero, nightmist, setback, scholar) also have consistent ways of extending their survivability through lots of healing and/or DR. Fixer has Grease Gun, which is awesome, but it’s a once-in-a-while thing, not usually something he can focus on without help. DW Fixer definitely has his uses, but the cost of having to destroy a card in order to contribute is steep.

All this is true, but the flaw in this reasoning is evident in the clause “Tome of Elder Magic keeps you in spells”. Tome gives you a power, which you can use instead of your character power. With tome, this style of play was always possible, even with base nightmist. DW nightmist doesn’t close one door and open another, she closes one door, which forces you to use the only open one you have remaining. Yes, it’s cool that you can pick your top card, but the downside in terms of hand size and setup time (finding essential pieces) is substantial.

someone who’s been destroying one every turn in order to use their power.

I think you’re right about this.

For me, DW Fixer's ability to play bloody knuckles, get the benefit (especially with the Jack handle), and then destroy them before having to deal with the negatives is well worth it. 

DW Nightmist is less efficient than regular.  Because she still deals herself damage.  Anytime she deals herself more than 2 damage, or is dealt more than 2 damage by a villain, Investigation becomes the clearly better power.

I prefer Attunement because I dislike the simplistic economy of Investigation, but investigation is the more effective power.

I've found I only really get use out of Enlightenment if I'm playing DW Nightmist -- otherwise, Call Forth and Investigation keep her well enough stocked with cards that Enlightenment becomes discard fodder. It helps that Call Forth is more of a sure thing (I know whether I have a 4 to discard, but not necessarily what's going to pop up with Enlightenment; not much use when it rolls a 1).

Idk if I agree with "investigation is the more effective power". Here is why.

Do I prefer to play original Nightmist? Sure do, but thats because I am totally compfortable with the playstyle and ammulet focus. I personally have a difficult time seeing her deck in a different way and I don't think I ever really use her DW varient to its fullest potential. But make no mistake, I have seen players make incredible use of Attunement. Its not just a shift in playstyle for Attunement, it takes a completley different mind-set to use.

In short, Attunement happens to be one of the very few powers that is hard to compare with it's base becuase it's so hard to find an objective place from which to judge it.

Now on the other hand, I think Setback probably has the largest discrepency in power between variant powers. His Mitigation from the Dark Watch version is miles behind his original card. I think it is just objectivly vastly undertuned compared to Risk within the context of his deck.

I can totally see the argument that DW Fixer is better than original. I find myself thinking the same thing from time to time. I even play with a friend who exclusivly plays Fixer since the day Rook City came out and I think he would have similar sentiments. However, there are things and situations where original Fixer just outshines his DW variant. There is something to be said for consistency, and even though his deck as a whole may not be the most consistently effective in the game, when he gets a perfect setup for the situation at hand, he can keep it and do his thing. DW Fixer has a much harder time doing this, as I think a lot of the time a DW Fixer player will fall into strings of turns going into weapon or style weaving to allow others time to set-up.

I think DW Setback should gain an unlucky token instead of losing one and then I might feel it's more balanced.  As is Setback's variant takes a bit of the fun out his deck while I don't feel that way with the other DW variants.

The flaw would be in assuming you'd have to use the Tome every round. If I've already got spells than I'm using her base power to maximize their use and only using the Tome when I'm out. If I've got Setback ready to drop a Turn of Events than I'm using the Tome for a free card and the Base power to setup the pain.

Granted, her playstyle isn't everyone's cup of tea with this variant. But she is far from inferior, she just plays different.

I've honestly had maybe 1 or 2 games where I had issues keeping the heroes setup and that was due mostly to just bad opening hands and draws. Most of the time I have no problem with Mr. Fixer treating his styles and tools as one-shots until I can get the combo I'm looking for. By then most other heroes have extra stuff just sitting there begging to be wrecked.

It also depends on who you're up against. If you're up against Ambuscade in the Final Wasteland, then sure, losing one card a round isn't too bad; you've got enough being played to outpace it.

If you're up against Miss Information or Chokepoint, however, you're already probably struggling to keep cards on the table before DW Fixer goes breaking your stuff.

If you're facing Miss Information or Chokepoint do you want your stuff broken for an effect or just because the villain is playing bad cards?

Sure you’d love to have it broken for an effect, but the point is, some equipments/ongoings are critical to a character’s effectiveness (think Absolute zero with his modules, or regular nightmist with her amulet. There are a lot of examples, really). If you’re playing a villain who can destroy equipments and ongoings, the only way to protect these critical cards is with other cards which, while nice, you can live without. DW fixer’s power eats away at that buffer, leaving your critical cards vulnerable. Contrast this with, for instance Citzen Dawn’s devastating aroura. Since it destroys all cards, you can’t use a buffer to protect the ones you want to keep, so you might as well use it to feed Fixer’s power instead.

No character has a card that is critical to play them, everything can be worked around.

"Okay, this card means we have to destroy four equipment cards. We've got eight on the table, so if we each lose one, we're fine."

Vs.

"Okay, this card means we have to destroy four equipment cards. Since Fixer's been destroying them all game, that's a total wipe."

Okay, maybe “critical” is in the eye of the beholder a bit, but there are certainly some cads which have a massive impact on the effectiveness of the hero, and others which have a lesser, or more situational impact. The point is that presenting it as a choice between having your stuff destroyed by Fixer and having them destroyed by the Villain/environment is fallacious. The villain and environment will get their pound of flesh, whatever Fixer does, unless you decide go for a completely ongoing/equipment- free playstyle, which might be a feasible strategy with some teams, but not, I think, with most. The choice you have is between keeping a buffer of less important cards to protect the ones you care about, or eating through it with Fixer.

There are also scenarios where the Ongoing or Equipment card that is destroyed doesn't matter.   Say you're before Legacy who had played Take Down or Heroic Interception they've served their purpose and will be destroyed soon so you have an easy choice.   Mostly I've found that I destroy Mr Fixer's  cards which is fine since he normally has an abundance of them to get rid of and ways to get them back if needed.  I also find it thematic that an angrier and bitter Mr Fixer has a harder time sustaining Harmony. 

@Foote:  I've had great games using Attunement, but for all the great times it sets up the right number, or gets you the heedless lash you want it does not make up for the damage swaps you can do every round with investigation.

Investigation is clearly better in any match where the villain deals 3 or more damage regularly, it won't even be close.  Because taking 2 damage and causing 3 to the villain versus taking 3 damage is a 4 point gain.  Even if you just play ring and only redirect investigate's damage back that base power is worth 3 damage, can Atttunement beat that?  Yes, some games attunement can beat that, but over a series of games Attunement falls short every time, although if you only play (H)=3 it gets closer.

It isn't anywhere near the Team Leader vs. Rapid Recon gap, but investigation still wins out.

Just wanted to bring this topic back on track. Discussion of the pros and cons of the variants versus the base cards is always interesting. It provides a window in to how peoples playstyles and opinions differ.

However, i began this topic to gain insight into how the whole Darkwatch team (variants only) work together.

Compared to the other teams Ive always considered Darkwatch kinda meh. After playing exclusively with them in the video game my opinion has shifted. They may not be the flashiest group, but they sure are the most versatile. That versatility has been key to several victories where all my cards were wiped, oh how I hate Dawn and THAT card, and I had to shift strategies.

Don't forget, Oblivaeon will bring their fifth member, The Harpy.

Split off so this thread can (maybe) go back to the topic… 

Yeah, I find that very entertaining. There's been a great deal of discussion around Fixer and Expat's abilities versus versatility over the years. Seeing them work with the rest of the team and how it all fits together is just wonderful to me.

Here’s what I’ll say about Dark Watch right now: They seem to have some synergy and some neat tricks they can pull off, particularly there are some really neat Fixer-Setback interactions. However, they don’t seem to be as effective as The Freedom Five or Prime Wardens working as a team overall. I’m talking more about base forms than promos since that’s what I’ve been playing a lot of lately. With the Freedom Five and Prime Wardens, I could often find good ways to combo their abilities to turn around close games (e.g. Fanatic uses base power on a Dynamic Syphon to allow Tempest to heal every one by 4 and grant AA 2 accompanys). Dark Watch have really struggled as the final numbers will bear out.

That said heres one combo I’ve found very useful a few times for the base forms of Dark Watch:
Expat: Uses incap to let NightMist deal 1 projectile next time she uses a power.
NightMist: Stays in Mist Form.
Setback: Discards top card of each deck with incap to fill NightMist trash with equipment.
Fixer: Uses incap ability to put equipment from trash into play.
Eventually NightMist leaves Mist Form and uses base power. Thanks to amulet and elder ring deals 3 damage to Villain plus 2 more for each time Expatriette used her incap ability.

I'm here to show some love to Whoops! Sorry! as ctrl+F reveals the card hadn't been mentioned.

Whoops! Sorry! works well with Mister Fixer, either variant. It is a way to ditch Bloody Knuckles before Mister Fixer takes any additional damage. While Dark Watch Mister Fixer can also do it, but Whoops! Sorry! has a restriction to be unable to destroy Setback's cards for the first part. So if something there needs to go away, Dark Watch Fixer can take care of Setback's Ongoing and Setback will return the favor. Also, it can be used to get rid of Grease Gun before Grease Gun destroys itself. Also, it can be used to destroy a style when Mister Fixer is ready to switch to another or a tool if Mister Fixer's player is confident that he won't be going back to that one. Whoops! Sorry! Also is great with Expatriette, do to the amount of duplicates she can get or being able to load Ammo onto a gun to be used as a sacrifice. NightMist also tends to get a lot of duplicate Equipment or take out the Starshield Necklace in the video game when answering no all the time gets annoying.