I am all for new artwork to better match the newer expansions but ugh. Spent so much on this game already and the announcement said "and a bunch of other brand new things." I am sure it was not the intention but I feel like I am being being forced to by the new version to get all the content.
I'm super sad. I saw the announcement today and thought I might be up for a streamlined version of this very good cooperative superhero card game. But then I looked at the all-new card art. I just can't. I get what Adam is going for, trying to make it look like comic book panels from when we were kids, but here's the thing about comic books when we were kids -- we didn't love the art because it looked great, we loved it because it was the best we could get at the time. The old card art may have been rough but at least it had colors. The new stuff is de-saturated and pixel-y (again, I get it, done on purpose, but woof) and looks kind of awful to me. I'm super sad that I feel that way and that I can't see myself playing this very good game while staring at that card art the whole time.
I love the changes made to reduce the wall of text on every card (i.e. "Start Phase"). I don't love how the "Ongoing" and "One-Shot" tags are now so small you have to squint to see what kind of card you're holding. And the new logo is giving me stomach aches -- why is "Of The Multiverse" not centered? Maybe there's some genius reason for these bad (to my eyes) design choices, but I can't figure them out.
Like I said, I'm super sad today. :(
Understandable responses. Hopefully the things that they show us moving forward will help with some of the concerns, but we’ll see. :-\
I’m definitely in the “I love all this” camp, myself. 
Luckily, nothing they’re doing will break what we have now, so we can keep playing with the old stuff. It is going to be hard for completionists to be okay with this, unfortunately, but that’s true every time a game comes out with a new edition – which happens a lot. 
My take is that this is more for new people than it is for us oldbies, per se.
There is a not insignificant number of people I've come across over time who like the idea of SotM but can't get past what they see as clunky rules or "bad art". A lot of them in particular signed onto the Freedom Five Kickstarter expressing those sentiments. So this edition which lets Adam show off his current day level of skills and the aptitude for homaging art era styles he's shown on the Letters Page Writers' Room covers, and lets Christopher revamp the rules and flavor text, will help alleviate some of those issues.
Though there are also things us oldbies might find interesting as well. Scenarios, "First Appearance" variants, balancing tweaks to characters some folks find weak, etc.
They've also mentioned things like conversion packs to make old decks compatible with new rules.
I have no doubt Handelabra will be interested in this as well, which may make things cheaper and more accessible for us oldbies to have access to the new things without re-breaking our wallets.
Looking at the art I am a little more annoyed now. I assumed that the art would be updated to match say Oblivaeon art style and not a completely new style.
If it matched the art style or card layout of Earth Prime (what a long, drawn out kickstarter) then I would consider boxing them together.
Ah well. Not everything is for everyone. As mentioned above though the completionist in me gets a facial tic thinking about it.
Sure but how did they decide to move away from this kind of art:
and decide that this kind of art would be better:
I just don't get it.
Me neither Spiff. Finally read the whole article and how they plan to release 6 more big box expansions over the next 6 years. Makes me cry a little inside.
This may not matter for the specific concerns people have about the art shown, but those are all cards showing panels from old comics, likely chosen for the article precisely because they're in that retro style. Christopher previewed additional cards on the podcast Discord and many had panels from newer issues with a more modern styles (the Character Cards shown, at least the ones that aren't the few "First Appearance" variants, were in the cleaner modern look for example). What may be strange is having a variety of styles within a single deck.
Well, this first box seems to be a lot of golden/silver age brand characters, so the art seems to reflect that. You wont see that style of art in an Expatriate deck i'd assume. Void Guard will have exclusivly contemporary art, since all their stories are from the modern era. I think its part of the narritive devices they have created since the letters page to solidify what they have been building.
I personaly think the art is fire. Adam nailed that golden/silver age feeling with his own sentinel flavor.
I have a lot of ppl that love the old art and wont like the new. I have ppl that love the new direction and didnt like the old. Cant please everyone.
This wont be something I buy most likely. Ill check out the digital version when its out. I have Sentinels as far as Im concerned. I hope the new version brings in a new wave of sentinel fans into the fold. its a great jumping in point for those who havnt gotten into it yet.
Mixed emotions on this - I love the game, have everything and don't want to rebuy everything, but at the same time, I'm glad that they're trying to improve the gameplay. I just wish there was something done for us oldies to try and bridge the gap
WalkingTarget and Foote nailed it, Spiff.
The idea is that if a card's flavor text is taken from the 1960s, it has 1960s era art to match. Or 80s. or 90s. Etc.
Adam's already been doing the same thing for his Writers' Room covers.
It's basically them leaning further into the metaverse they've built up of this being "fictional comics from a fictional comics company".
Not to mention how dog-eared my copy of The Wraith is getting… 
I am particularly excited for the scenarios, personally, and I’m really interested to see how they plan to weave more story content into the game – since it seems like they plan to be a little more explicit about going into particular issues, events, and so forth. Like, where do those covers come in?
The art I don’t mind – I get the polarization, but I’m able to look past it. The card redesign I’m a little more iffy on, though, but I’m sure it’s still in work and we’re looking at mock-ups. I really like the “start phase” indicator (I imagine there would also be tags for “end phase” and “whenever: X”). But I agree with the comment about how small the One-Shot/Ongoing keywords are. And what the heck is “fixed” damage? Oh, gosh, another damage modifier to keep track of!
I'll join the mixed feelings boat as well.
I've long felt that GtG spends too much energy on the story their games tell and not enough on the games themselves and the art style change seems to be more of the same. Making your game look worse just because it fits the story you're telling seems like shooting yourself in the foot. I hope it works out for them, I guess.
"Like, where do those covers come in?"
I'm guessing you mean the Moonfall and Singularity covers? Moonfall kicked off in April '68 and Singularity in April '76 (although we see the cover for issue #8 from November) and cover Baron Blade's original Terralunar Impulsion Beam plot and the Omnitron I events respectively, so basically already what those two villain decks model, only I guess with specific setups to lean even more into the story they envision for the comics.
"I really like the "start phase" indicator (I imagine there would also be tags for "end phase" and "whenever: X")."
Yes, we saw similar color-coded tags for all 5 main turn phases. Also, stuff in Incapacitated abilities that were like "One player takes their Play Phase now" so any modifiers they have in play for their Play Phase (say, Tachyon getting to play extra cards) still take effect.
"And what the heck is "fixed" damage?"
This seems to be a replacement for "irreducible" and my guess of "a symmetrical irreducible, can't be increased or decreased" got a pointing-at-it emoji from Christopher. Somebody else guessed unable to be redirected too, but there was no comment on that one way or the other that I saw.
I mean, the entire reason the SotM games exist is because C&A wanted to tell a story, and many of us are here specifically because we like the Sentinels fiction including the metafiction.
Wow! It's so fun to come back to the GtG forums and see so many familiar faces all in one post!
As an "oldbie," I would certainly agree that this isn't for us...which is a shame because I definitely want to support the company (and Adam and Christopher, who feel like cousins or something haha). I'm sure this will get made because Kickstarter is where it's at, but I can't imagine it getting the same tidal wave of support as OblivAeon. As for the new art, I would love it to be integrated into my current set, and I would buy it easily if that were the case. But...c'est la vie!
I personally love how the art faithfully replicates the art of the era the comics are supposed to come from. I can look at pretty art anywhere. Art that evokes real comic books from the history of a made-up publisher, placing each story somewhere in an 80-year history, is completely unique. Heck, I'd actually prefer it if games like Marvel Legendary did the same thing! For me, story and history trump attractiveness. Adam has done a stellar job with this and--other than the new, non-cute Raptor Bot--I wouldn't have it any other way.
I personally probably won't buy this right away, unless the Kickstarter comes with lots of perks, just because it doesn't include all the content, especially my wife's favorite hero Parse. (She complained bitterly about not being able to play Parse every time we playtested.) Plus we don't game in-person these days anyway. But I'll almost certainly get it eventually. It's an amazing product. As a playtester, I'm very proud of what I was able to be a part of here.
I'm pretty neutral on the change in the art - it runs the risk of making the decks look inconsistent for the long running heroes (same way modern and silver-age Spiderman comics are inconsistent), and between heroes of different eras, but at the same time the original art has always felt more cartoon than comic-book. That's not a criticism of Adam, it's a product of how quickly they had to put the games together and the sheer amount of art required, so I can't blame them wanting to take another pass at it.
I'm much more interested in the game play changes and how those are handled
Yeah, I know what stories they represent, what I meant was more like, how do those covers integrate into the gameplay material? Are they on setup cards for scenarios? Pictures in the rulebook? The backs of Baron Blade and Omnitron cards? There are lots of possibilities, and I think this is an opportunity to better integrate the story with the game, which would be cool.
I should also say that when I wrote that I see how the art is polarizing, but I could look past it – I meant looking past the polarization, not the art. I do kind of like the “period” art. Baron Blade in particular looks fantastic! I hope it all integrates together into a cohesive whole, with the newer-style art presumably on other cards.
To be fair, I think that’s just re-releasing all the old material.
Definitive Edition - has twelve heroes, six villains, and six environments. I predict it’ll be the ten original core heroes plus Unity and the Scholar, the four original core villains plus Ambuscade and Miss Information, and the four original core environments plus Omnitron-IV and Silver Gulch.
Big Box 1: Rook City and Infernal Relics [12 decks]
Big Box 2: Shattered Timelines and Wrath of the Cosmos [12 decks]
Big Box 3: Vengeance [12 decks]
Big Box 4*: Villains of the Multiverse [14 decks, but no heroes so not as many cards]
Big Box 5*: Standalones. Seven heroes (Benchmark, Guise, Stuntman, and Void Guard) Two Villains (Chokepoint, Wager Master) and Two Environments (Celestial Tribunal and Final Wasteland.) [11 decks, but more hero-tilted]
[* - It’s possible that they’ll rearrange Villains and the Standalones to balance them out a bit more; maybe five Vengeance-style villains, one standard villain, three or four heroes and three environments per set.]
Big Box 6: Oblivaeon. [14 decks: five heroes, five environments, and four Oblivaeon-specific decks.]
That’s a full six boxes of re-released Sentinels material without actually having any new decks.
I wasn't sure what to expect art wise from this update but I was amazed by the varying styles that Adam is able to do. It adds more flavor and history to it.
I'm on the mixed bag train too. Like the art nails the look its going for, but I think the game will lose something having different styles on the board clashing with each other. Rather then a shared art style making everything feel like a living world happening "now" it is going to make different elements feel like they belong in different times and places. Which I could see being seen as a plus, but its not what I would go with. They also just look less visually pleasing.
Christopher clarified that there will be 6 boxes total, not 6 expansions. The core box bas been confirmed to include the Freedom Five, Prime Wardens, Unity, Ra, and the original core villains and environments plus Akash'Bhuta, Matriarch, Magmaria, and Freedom Tower.
My personal guess is a core box, a Dark Watch urban/magic box, a Void Guard cosmic box, a timelines/multiverse box, and OblivAeon. That's five. No idea what direction Vengeance/Villains is going.
EDIT - anyone know how to get the HTML tags to work for the quote? Thanks Rabit!
Oh, I was way off. Thanks for the update, MindWanderer!
You have to use the [ quote= “name” ] tag, just remove the spaces.
Thanks Rabit, they might need to change the info under the posts, I got confused with the line below, so couldn't figure out what was wrong. I tried quote, but didn't change to square brackets
" Allowed HTML tags: <a> <em> <strong> <u> <cite> <blockquote> <code> <ul> <ol> <li> <dl> <dt> <dd> <h2> <h3> <h4> <h5> <h6> <p> <br> <img> <b> "
I don't really have an opinion on the "polarising" art. It's all better than I can draw! ; D
I am, however, quite saddened that they're relesing new mechanical content (variants, scenarios) that, in order to get, one would need to buy many dollars worth of content that one already owns.
I purchased my first copy of SotM from Chris and Paul at their convention table in 2011, and I've participated in every Kickstarter, pre-sale, etc., since. I'm extremely disappointed with today's news.
When the DE was first mentioned in the Letters Page, I had one question: "What about those of us who have followed this game for 10 years and spent hundreds of dollars on the product?" The answer we got today was loud and clear—thanks, but if you want to keep following SotM, you're going to have to keep paying. Oh, and by the way, we're calling this new game the "Definitive Edition," and we're making sure it's "improved in just about every way" and is "the best version of Sentinels of the Multiverse that anyone ha[s] ever seen"—hope you're not a completionist or prone to FOMO.
And what's so frustrating to me is that I love this game. And I think the new art is great, and I'm interested in seeing the streamlined rules and new iterations of characters. But in order to do that, I have to re-buy everything I already own. And to a certain extent, I think GtG is banking on the fact that many of us are going to keep ponying up because we love the game and want to have the latest and greatest version of it. I feel like I'm getting taken advantage of, and it sucks.
Another old fart over here. I'm going to paddle against the stream and say that I like it, every bit of it.
Even way back around the Infernal Relics/Shattered Timeline era I felt that >G should have recognised some of the problems with the game as it stood at the time, stopped everything and gone into revision. Instead they went on to do numerous reprints knowing all the time that there were very simple and easy fixes such as changing to more legible fonts, improving the graphic layout and highlighting the game phases where effects happen. Even during Oblivaeon they were still making unforgivably dumb graphic choices like putting dark text on a dark background.
Offering us balance tweaks, clearer and more economical wording, and Adam's art and composition getting better are just the icing on the cake.
The only thing that I dislike is that the font size appears to be getting smaller which is not a sensible thing to do, especially the Ongoing/Equipment tag which ought to be at least four times bigger so that it can be easily seen across the playing area. I remain blessed with good eyesight and the new font, despite being significantly more readible, is just on the edge of becoming too small for me and would really benefit from being a couple of points larger. Anyone suffering from vision impairment is going to struggle for sure, I can see the future negative feedback all the way from here.
I have to confess that I rarely play Sentinels these days as Spirit Island and other games are far more attractive to us so having a new edition might well be the re-invigoration that we need to get it back on regular rotation again. I shall quite happily sell all of my current stuff and start buying into this new version instead.
The history you describe fits me, also. :-D
In no way am I going to say your feelings are wrong – they’re your feelings and I will not invalidate them – but I had a very different reception to the Definitive Edition announcement. I’m really glad they are taking this step to introduce the game to a new audience of people who weren’t able to appreciate the original (due to art, inconsistencies, whatever) by addressing those concerns. And they haven’t invalidated everything that we loved in the first place, although I understand and appreciate the point about completionists / FOMO. :-(
However, I think that, if they were just going to take advantage of us, they would have just continued to create new expansions. :-\ I mean, people were begging them to do so, and it’s not like they couldn’t. But they didn’t want to just keep trolling people for cash (as some other games have – I’m looking at you, Dominion 
) and had a very specific story to tell.
But that’s just me and how I’m looking at this. :-)
On the Ongoing/One-Shot thing, can you also distinguish between them by the color of the card background?
EDIT: Looks like not, it's just a hero/villain card distinction that I was seeing in the examples.
[quote=“”CBattles6“”]
And I think the new art is great, and I’m interested in seeing the streamlined rules and new iterations of characters. But in order to do that, I have to re-buy everything I already own.
[/quote]
Actually, you don’t, FWIW. Paul mentioned on the LP server they’re going to have a conversion document that will update the old cards to the new rules if you want to use the new rules. It won’t be perfect since some cards have been replaced/split, but it’ll still let you use the new rules if you want. (I do think this should be said publicly by the GTG folks to alleviate this concern, but it has been said.)
Also, I'm pretty sure the upcoming [REDACTED] episode of the Letters Page is going to be all about the Definitive Edition. The timing is pretty convenient. I'm guessing they will answer a lot of these questions there, if asked.
My biggest hope is that they'll release the First Appearance Variants and Scenarios seperately, so those of us who already bought the "First Edition" can buy them without having to buy so much stuff we alreay own. But I doubt that'll happen. :' (
Also, according to MindWanderer's post above, I guess that means no The Visionary. . . She'll probably be in the "timelines/multiverse box" MindWanderer guessed about.
I wish them well in this new edition, but I'm good with what I have. Time will tell if this move was worth it.
Quote: My biggest hope is that they'll release the First Appearance Variants and Scenarios seperately, so those of us who already bought the "First Edition" can buy them without having to buy so much stuff we alreay own. But I doubt that'll happen. :' (
That is my hope and fear as well.
[quote=“”Godai“”]
Also, I’m pretty sure the upcoming [REDACTED] episode of the Letters Page is going to be all about the Definitive Edition. The timing is pretty convenient. I’m guessing they will answer a lot of these questions there, if asked.
[/quote]
It is, and they do in fact want people to get their questions in today.
Yup. After reconciling myself to "No More Sentinels" and a Sidekick app that STILL doesn't include Oblivaeon (and now the black box coming apart) the news that those of us that have given GTG 400+ dollars on this one game get is "spend more for an improved in every way game" feels like a bit of a bummer.
But it is what it is I suppose.
" However, I think that, if they were just going to take advantage of us, they would have just continued to create new expansions. "
I will never understand this thinking. Until Oblivaeon, their expansions hadn't been trolls or cash grabs... they added awesome new elements and characters and a rich experience. Them choosing to end the story... cool, their choice. But to keep printing expansions would have been a service to fans as long as the gameplay stayed good.
Revising the rules and asking people to pony back up... that's not the same as printing expansion content for people who already gave them 400+
Other companies: Create tons of new editions of all their games every other year.
Board game fans:
GTG: Create a single new edition in ten years after they've led up to it for ages saying it's a creative desire to fix problems they've had creative issues with that also addresses issues that have turned off a fair number of potential new players.
Board game fans: CASH GRAB CASH GRAB CASH GRAB
I, for one, am not claiming it is a "cash grab," I am just saying I'm probably not going to buy it because I already own 90% of it. (Then again, your comment was probably not directed at me, but I still felt the urge to defend myself. ; ))
I do realise that this thread seems to be full of complaints, but I, for one, do think it is a great new edition to a great game, that fixes and improves many things, and newbies should definitely get it. It's just not for those of us who already bought the First Edition and don't want to pay twice for what is, essential, the same content.
fjur: That was more aimed at Ulf316, CBattles6, and similar comments I've seen on Reddit and BGG.
I don't have a problem with people who just aren't interested in rebuying it or would rather see what Handelabra does with it, I'm just weary of the blatant double standard of those folks specifically screaming about "cash grabs" when they don't blink twice at other gaming companies making new editions all the time.
My opinion is that GtG will most likely already be looking into options on how to singularly sell the "new" items (variants/scenarios), even if it is not at retail release of the Definitive Edition. It is money on the table, and while they are not out for a cash grab, they would be fools to not recognize that not everyone will buy the Definitive Editions (for valid reasons listed in this thread), but will still want The New Shinies.
I would expect an announcement along the lines of "halfway between DE box 1 and DE box 2, here is New Stuff Pack 1."
The entire box is New Shinies. If your intent is to buy only the content that differs between EE and DE, you will be buying the entire thing. Maybe not every individual card, but close enough to make no significant difference--and you wouldn't want to mismatch the card backs anyway.
It sounds like we should expect forthcoming announcements with lots more details: https://twitter.com/GTGChristopher/status/1354481228393623554
Jeysie, how do you know people don't blink twice? That's very presumptuous of you.
When Christopher first shared first draft of DE files with playtesters my reaction was "why?"
After playing the final version my reaction is "why would I ever go back?" (Especially if/when DE is adapted as a digital game).
I get that this won't be for everyone, but it really sucks to see people calling it a cash grab after seeing how much work Christopher, Adam, and Chris poured into it.
Dandolo: You made the point many you are decrying are making. You said they made a new version that makes you never want to go back to the old. You have thousands of us that have stood by GtG and given them hundreds of dollars for this game already, who are being told "Oh, but once you buy these you'll never go back!". Can you not see how that might be perceived by someone as they look at their decaying black box of content?
I frankly am happy they are putting a base edition back out for consumption by new players but the initial messaging of "you need these new rules because they are so much better" landed on some (potentially formerly) loyal customers the wrong way.
[quote=“”Ulf316“”]
Jeysie, how do you know people don’t blink twice?
[/quote]
It’s called “reading board game communities and not seeing this level of complaining about other games getting new editions”. 
I think the only time I’ve recently seen people complain this much about a new edition was Arkham Horror and that seemed far less fueled by the mere fact of a new edition existing the way this is and more fueled by things like it being created without Launius’ input and making changes people didn’t like.
Right and the very people you called out may very well also "blink twice" when it's done for other games.
I might also suggest that the level of investment is different when you have people who gave GtG hundreds for their game, had over a year late kickstarter, etc etc. Getting a 10th anniversary Notre Dame with the same ruleset, especially when you paid 40 for the first edition, invokes a different emotional response than having a 10th anniversary addition with a ruleset you "shouldn't play without" after dropping 300+ on Sentinels.
In short, there's rational reasons for the different levels of concern.
[quote=“”Ulf316“”]
I might also suggest that the level of investment is different when you have people who gave GtG hundreds for their game, had over a year late kickstarter, etc etc.
[/quote]
Dude, you’re talking to someone who literally did just spend hundreds to buy all of physical Sentinels last year, so, don’t speak for me, if you don’t mind.
I just don’t see why I should get upset over Sentinels having a single updated version of a 10 year old game when there are any number of tabletop games I own or have played with multiple editions. Why does GTG have less right to do that? Especially when they have valid, solid reasons for doing it that aren’t just “more money”.
Do folks normally complain about new versions of products (like smart phones, video game consoles, RPG rule sets, cars), or just new board game versions? New versions are always touted as being better than the previous version since they are trying to sell a product. New versions do not invalidate your existing purchase and you are not being forced to “upgrade”.
I assume that when most people hear of a new version of a product they already own, they simply do some research and evaluate the new version to see if it’s worth purchasing or not.
Providing helpful feedback or constructive criticism to help improve the new version for everybody is useful/encouraged. Complaining just about the existence of the new version is not very helpful and seems to be a waste of everyone’s time.
I'm not speaking for you. The point you quoted is in reference to people being upset about new editions, and my supposition that there's a difference in intensity between a 2nd edition of a 40 dollar game vs a 300 dollar game with very late kickstarter deliveries (i.e. intensity of investment and lingering ill will). I'm actually addressing your "I don't know why people are so upset about this but not upset about X game 4th edition...", not speaking FOR you. Further, no one is telling you to be upset. Look which side is doing the attacking. Has anyone said "If you are excited for this you are wrong" in this forum? No. You called out individuals and then tried to make them look like hypocrites for not being enraged by X 4th edition but being upset about this release.
To be 100% clear: You are welcome to feel however you like, I certainly wish I could feel about this as you do, AND the people who are concerned or who shared that the messaging hit them negatively, are not hypocrites or bad people... they are giving constructive feedback on the product messaging which GtG can use or not as they see fit.
[quote=“”Ulf316“”]
Look which side is doing the attacking.
[/quote]
The side which accuses GTG of a cash grab for doing something every other game company regularly does, to address things about the game both GTG and other people genuinely thought were issues, is definitely the side doing the attacking.
[quote=“”Ulf316“”]
they are giving constructive feedback on the product messaging
[/quote]
The people in this thread giving polite feedback on what they do and don’t like about the changes are giving constructive feedback.
“The mere fact that this exists is a cash grab” is objectively not in any way, shape, or form, actually constructive feedback.
An analogy: Finer Than Fashion makes a wonderful clothing line. For a decade, they have made lovely clothes that everyone buys. Lots of accessories, pants, shirts, dresses, even vests. After a decade of this, they say they are done making new clothes. But they have looked at their back catalog, and are not happy with the colors and sewing in a few areas. So they are going to rerelease their entire catalog, taking all the tips and tricks they learned over the last decade, to improve their clothes.
oh, and as an added bonus, the clothes will have extra pockets.
Your closet is still full of Finer than Fashion clothing. It all still fits, it all looks good, you are fine with the imperfections that are there. You don't need to buy the same clothes again, just to get a few more pockets. If you WANT to, great. But you don't HAVE to.
End scene.
No one told you that you were wrong for your feelings or opinion. You are doing exactly that. You are painting people as hypocrites. I gave you real answers why perhaps this decision and it's messaging might be different than what "every other game company regularly does" but you don't want to hear or explore that. You are right, they are wrong.
Ulf316: Is there a reason why you're acting like I'm the only one telling you these things when there's actually multiple people in this thread telling you the same things I am?
There are obviously strong, differeing opinions about this, but it seems to me that neither side is ever going to stand down or convinve the other that they're right. It's just stubborn human nature. So why don't we all just agree to disagree, hmm?
I just made two posts. A Hooray Post and a Boooo Post. Go there, and share your joy and/or misery. Peace!
[quote=“”fjur“”]
So why don’t we all just agree to disagree, hmm?
[/quote]
The forum rules are pretty clear that you are not allowed to accuse others of malice, which was the core of my issue here was some folks accusing GTG of malice.
I actually don’t care if people simply aren’t interested or aren’t happy with some of the new content so long as they’re not throwing around accusations of GTG being malicious by doing this when there’s little evidence to back that up.
(I think in general there’s a lot of people–especially gamers unfortunately–who need to understand the very important difference between disagreement and being an unconstructive jerk in how you disagree. It’s always the latter I actually take issue with on things like this.)
Should I wait to buy my son all the previous expansions? Is the real question. Also, i cannot order out of the store at GTG
illusive622: Depends on how soon you/they want to play it. This new set of expansions isn't going to be completed for the next six years, which is... a bit of a wait.
And the existing version of the game definitely is enjoyable as-is, it's why we're all here after all. :)
I was scornful and skeptical at first too. Waiting for Sentinels of Earth Prime too. Looking to 3rd party expansions to suffice the urge for new content. Then I did my research and talked to all my family members and friends that are die hard for this game. It's like a new multiverse. New storyline, new art with some of the same heroes, villains and environments (a little different). Maybe different variants... it's not unheard of to reboot a comic character. I'm newly excited about throwing my moneys at new and improved. Especially now I'll be able to have two of each base character. Ooo... do the previous variants still crossover into the new version of the old character? Curious and excited.
Also realizing I got distracted from mentioning that if people are curious for a wider idea of the cards: https://old.reddit.com/r/sentinelsmultiverse/comments/l7g2ls/definitive_edition_cards_posted_on_the_discord/
You are too right. However, I'm attempting to buy everything he doesn't have (guise is his favorite and out of stock) off of the GTG store. However, it doesn't give any delivery options, so I cannot complete my purchase.
I believe they stopped their regular printings of previous content in anticipation of this announcement. So it's not surprising Guise is out of stock; they probably won't reprint him. I would look online, maybe on the secondary market.
There's something severely screwed up with the online store right now, where no delivery options exist for anything. GtG has been informed but I'm not aware of a response yet.
Providing helpful feedback or constructive criticism to help improve the new version for everybody is useful/encouraged. Complaining just about the existence of the new version is not very helpful and seems to be a waste of everyone’s time.
That is not what is going on here - asking why there isn’t more of an effort to find a way for existing players to upgrade isn’t complaining about the existence of the game, it’s asking for people who have cared for and supported the game for a long time to be treated with some degree of consideration. As for construcive criticism, you may have noticed a number of people calling out the issues of inconsistent artwork (in the deliberate attempt to cover different eras), but it seems far too late in the process for that fair commentary to make a difference. It seems like you define constructive as things you agree with…
Woah, thanks for posting this. There are some surprisingly major changes to the game revealed here! I see some big alterations to how Tachyon, Ra, Fanatic, Wraith, Bunker, Wagner Mars Base, and Atlantis work.
One thing I noticed is that hero character cards are a different size than their decks. That means I can’t stack them together any more, for storage or when handing them out to players…I guess the idea must be to keep all the variants for a character cards in a different place than their deck. It feels a little less modular – but, on the other hand, we get to see more of the artwork. I laughed to see the reappearance of “Take that, Soviet slob!”
The one thing I think is a little disappointing is that the clarification of game language came at the expense of adding in more jargon to the card texts. I see a lot more specialized terms like “summon,” “salvage,” and “discover.” I understand the motivation to do that, but it does mean that we’ll have more explanation to do with new players. It used to be a couple key concepts, and then “you do what the card says!” Admittedly there was always in-game clarification, and it sometimes made for verbose cards, but for teaching I liked having the rules written more on the game itself than in a booklet.
I got a real kick out of the fact that Tempest still has the same quote on Ball Lightning. Geez, these guys really don’t get how to write Tempest, do they? 
ViolentSilence wrote:
As for the arrogant and condescending Quote:Providing helpful feedback or constructive criticism to help improve the new version for everybody is useful/encouraged. Complaining just about the existence of the new version is not very helpful and seems to be a waste of everyone's time.That is not what is going on here - asking why there isn’t more of an effort to find a way for existing players to upgrade isn’t complaining about the existence of the game, it’s asking for people who have cared for and supported the game for a long time to be treated with some degree of consideration. As for construcive criticism, you may have noticed a number of people calling out the issues of inconsistent artwork (in the deliberate attempt to cover different eras), but it seems far too late in the process for that fair commentary to make a difference. It seems like you define constructive as things you agree with…
Wow, thank you so much for interpreting my non-existent tone and for telling me how I define constructive. I really appreciate it. And since you may need help with this, my previous two sentences are sarcasm. Feedback relating to font sizes/tonal art dissonance is useful. Complaining about the existence of the new edition is not. I’m not saying people can’t make that complaint, just that’s it’s not helpful to anyone (well maybe to the complainer for cathartic reasons). But since you say the real issue is supporters not being treated with consideration, let’s focus on that.
What exactly should that consideration look like or entail? Other board games may create some sort of upgrade kit for folks but that’s not really an option here since it looks like all of the card art is new. So you can’t have a partial upgrade kit when the vast majority of the components are brand new. The best they could do would be some conversion rules to make the old stuff work with the new stuff (which I believe Paul has stated will happen).
So what other options are there to show consideration? Maybe a loyalty discount or something. But how would that work? Who gets the discount? People who have bought everything? What about people who only own half of the expansions? How would you verify it?
Any other ideas? Please feel free to let GTG know what kind of consideration they should be providing so long term supporters no longer feel outraged by their audacity to create an awesome new product for everyone to enjoy.
Anyway, I’ve rambled on long enough. My apologies for any snarkiness. I hope you and all GTG fans have a great day.
[quote=“”Trajector“”]
Woah, thanks for posting this. There are some surprisingly major changes to the game revealed here! I see some big alterations to how Tachyon, Ra, Fanatic, Wraith, Bunker, Wagner Mars Base, and Atlantis work.
[/quote]
Yeah.
To lean back and address ViolentSilence, one reason why I get irritated at “cash grab” comments or the claim GTG isn’t considering existing fans is that a lot of the changes being made directly address things existing fans have griped about. Bunker feeling weak. AZ needing some card acceleration. Drake’s Pipes being an oft-dismissed instrument. Devastating Aurora being overwhelmingly one of the most punishing cards in the game. Etc.
How is giving people changes they’ve repeatedly said they wish existed or addressing things people have often felt are flaws a bad thing?
There aren't many special words, and I personally like them. They're not hard at all, and they save a lot of text and reading. Nothing like, say, Magic: the Gathering.
I suggested in proofreading that they might want to "correctly" attribute that quote to Tempersonation, but they didn't bite.
I suppose that adding more rules to save card room and minimize reading is a reasonable choice, but I also think that one of the great things about 1st Ed. SotM is it's rules-lightness.
About Ball Lightning: That's probably because no one who doesn't have Biomancer or listens to The Letters Page would know who Tempersonation is. [Spoilers?]
Doesn't stop there from being references to Ammit (who, like Tempersonation, had its own card in EE) and The Adhesivist. And you can roughly guess who Tempersonation is from the name.
True. I suppose it could be justified because it's retcon, maybe. . .
Reminder: If the thread doesn’t stay cool, we’ll lock it. We’re doing so well – let’s not ruin it? Please?
[quote=“”ViolentSilence“”]
New card art is a production choice. Old art could be reused, and that is not difficult in the age of computers, so if people wanted upgrades for cards being replaced, the card art from the old version could be used in their stead, and therefore mesh more neatly with existing decks.
[/quote]
The card art isn’t being reused because Adam’s unhappiness with the old art was one of the major drivers to make a new edition.
The card list also isn’t precisely one to one. Some cards have been removed, others have been split into two cards. Not sure if you saw the preview list I posted, but it’s worth perusing to get an idea of the changes.
Just because art isn't being reused, doesn't mean that it can't. It's not the same situation as if a company was reskinning a game because they lost the licence (and I think that would be a fascinating question to see what would happen if either GW decided to straight up reprint BloodBowl Team Manager, Forbidden Stars or Death Angel, or if FFG decide to release a rethemed version since mechanics can't be copywritten, and while FFG designed the games, the art was all GW)
I'm not saying the changes are one to one - I'm saying that if you have a 40 card deck, and the changes to say 31 of them are largely cosmetic and covered by the rules update, then the remaining 9 cards that are substantially changed/removed/added is an easier number to have to rebuy and integrate. If say Devastating Aura was nerfed, you'd only need to replace those copies of the card if it used the original artwork, not the whole deck. Now, we know that some heroes are getting massive redesigns, so those are unavoidable, but for the remainder, only having to buy a fraction of the deck would make the changes easier for existing players to swallow the costs for
Why don't y'all just wait and see exactly how much of each deck is changed before continuing this argument? So much of this heat is based on pure speculation.
Iv written and deleted a few posts at this point. but im getting a bit more agitated as I read stuff across multiple platforms here.
DE is not targeted to or marketed at long time sotm players. its a new jumping in point for fans who have found the multiverse via letters page and the rpg, and with that new jumping on point are brand new art and story tie ins (to gel with the growing world from the letters page) and a gameplay overhaul while they were at it. If you feel such a compulsion to buy a game thats not exactly targeted to you, making you upset over what you precieve as a "cash grab" (i wont even get started on how trash and lazy that insult is), then there is a serious need for a reevaulation of your spending habits.
Also, do you really think gtg sits around in meetings that amount to "you know, a simple card upgrade packs would be really easy to do. lets just not do that super simple thing just to piss folks off"? A bit of perspective here would go a long way my friends. If it was actually that simple, it would probably be happening. If its not happening, occams razor is your friend. the simple explaination is that its just not possible, and that the changes are far more different and extensive than your super heroic leaps of assumption are seeing. Like, you fully understand that GtG is going to do themselvs a pretty signifigant diservice by releasing a conversion rubrik thats going to, by nessesity, be a clunky bandaid for a non-existant problem just becuase they care what people are saying right?
I'v played SotM from the first day that small square box hit its first retail shelf. I'm as OG as you're gonna find. And I'm still not owed, or entitled to, special treatment or consideration when it comes to any future Sentinel based product. And thats ok. I have a 10 year old game that I still play extensivly which has not grown old or stale. I got my moneys worth, and then some. Sure im disapointed that DE is not a product for me. The RPG isn't either and that has SO much great story and character stuff in the multiverse that I wont get to see. That new Sentinel board game from Launius isn't for me either. But all of that is still OK. Because it all brings new people into the community and into this really engaging world that Adam and Christopher have built for us to all share in. It's not about me. It's not about you. All the negativity im seeing is so drenched in entitlment and selfishness that I can no longer not say my piece.
If you're a long time SotM vet on the fence about the product, just don't buy it. You really don't need it. This isn't being made for you or me. Try it out when you can, and make your decision later after you see if this is something you actually want based on the new art and narrative based tie ins. But if your'e new to the game, love the podcast, and into the world building but too intimidated by a 10 year old game with a million expansions and mini expansions in various stages of print, then this will be the product for you that will last you years to come.
ViolentSilence wrote:
Your tone is not non-existent.
My tone was definitely intended as neutral. Can you please explain how “Providing helpful feedback or constructive criticism to help improve the new version for everybody is useful/encouraged. Complaining just about the existence of the new version is not very helpful and seems to be a waste of everyone’s time.” is arrogant and condescending? I can sort of see the case for it being called dismissive, since it is dismissing a very particular kind of complaint. Should I have added “In my opinion” or “I think that” to the beginning of those statements to soften the tone or something? Help me understand cause I just don’t get it.
ViolentSilence wrote:
You should perhaps think about how you come across to others when you write something dismissive? Seriously, that's just generally good advice. It's not a good look when pointed out that you come across arrogant and condescending to then write "since you may need help with this". Don't get angry when other people point out your obvious faults and failings.
I wrote that as an obvious jab but now I wonder if there’s some truth to it. You seem to read way more into things than what’s actually there. I didn’t get angry. I did get a bit annoyed when you put words in my mouth with saying that I only define constructive as things I agree with. I have no idea how you got that idea from anything I said in my initial post.
ViolentSilence wrote:
But well done on continuing the sneering tone, if you were genuine in apologising for your sarkiness, you might have thought to edit your post and remove it instead of going combative again? Just a thought...
Maybe you should have taken your own advice and edited your initial post instead of going combative right off the bat. Just a thought…I mean seriously, if you removed like two sentences from your initial post, it would have been perfectly reasonable and we wouldn’t be here trading petty passive aggressive insults.
To everyone else, I apologize for going off topic and potentially derailing the thread. I should know better than to argue on the internet, but the instinct to defend oneself is difficult to overcome. I will refrain from any further posting on this matter.
This really is a divisive topic and I am somewhat of two minds.
Will be interesting to see all of the news in the next few months to see where this goes.
Here is Christopher and Adam talking about the DE https://theletterspage.libsyn.com/episode-165-sentinels-of-the-multiverse-definitive-edition
Can we please keep this thread about discussing the Definitive Edition and not making personal attacks?
Let’s make that official: Any further posts not directly related to Definitive Edition will result in disciplinary actions and locking of this thread.
For reference, please see rules 1, 3, 5, 14, and 15 of the Official Forum Rules and rules 1, 4, and 5 of the Forum Discourse Rules.
Especially that rule 15: “Have fun!” That’s the most important one. :-)
I would like to say something that is not often said on the internet: you have changed my mind! I wasn't very excited at the prospect of my expansive purchase not being compatible with the new stuff...but by golly if y'all on the 'let's wait and see' side of things haven't turned me around on that. I'm becoming more and more interested, and those (very good) points about how this is a much harder undertaking than simply doing an "upgrade pack" should really squash any thought of this trying to feed on people's wallets. This was a labor of love! I'll still check it out and make a wise decision, but I'm far more hooked than I was a week ago.
Thanks, internet!
The new Letters Page episode combined with the art being shared frequently by Adam on twitter did move me from "wait and see how it turns out, likely just get the digital version" to "gonna back the kickstarter" I think I still would have prefered going with all the cards in the single "Sentinels" art style to the many (very skillfully) done period sytles cause to my mind it creates a better sense of cohesion and looks cleaner, but I'm not the artist and it is still neat to see them.
I do understand the feelings of frustration someone might have if they just want like the story mode campaign and dont want to re-buy the rest of the decks. My guess is that once it is out people will be able to reverse engineer something to work with the old system, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was pretty quickly some kind of fan conversion of the events to the old systems and fan made events floating around out there pretty quickly.
Like anything done with the conversion "rubric," some will work fine, some will work badly, and some will be little more than gibberish. You have enough information to guess that the Critical Event for Omnitron would just not translate at all (since the rules that govern Exterminate/Fabricate are on the character card). And some there won't be any need to convert--the example Critical Event was Mad Bomber Baron Blade, after all.
I wasn't refering to someone using the rubric so much as the community making something up whole cloth once they have a basic template to go off of. I didn't playtest this game so I have no idea how the rubric works or anything else, but there are enough people that do fan made content and modes in this community once they have something to work with I am sure someone is gonna do something.
Kind of like making an old favorite class from one edition of DnD work in another, its just a thing gamers do.
This was a total surprise to me when I opened the Letters Page today, and I've got to say it was a very pleasant surprise. I loved the enthusiasm they had, the idea of story mode, some under-developed characters mechanically (Fanatic and Bunker both mentioned) getting revamped, villians retooled. To me it's just "Sentinels: 2nd edition" and I really hoped for a long time they'd make, even if it primarily included the original couple of sets.
After Christopher and Adam seemed so pumped about it I kind of hope they don't come see these threads with just how negative a ton of people are being on it.
They're aware of the negative feedback. They don't engage much with the forums but they do check on them, as well as BGG and Reddit, and of course there will be comments on the Kickstarter as well. And anything they miss, the playtesters often bring up if they feel concerned about something.
Fortunately, it looks like the more they reveal, the more the feedback becomes positive.
So far, from all the descriptions and images, I've yet to see anything that makes me think we CANNOT replace existing decks with new decks, and play. I understand new terminology exists, and some cards say things like "take a power phase" instead of "use a power", but honestly, they still seem compatible. Especially because the decks are designed to have synergy, but not dependence, on other decks. From everything I've seen, the new decks are self-contained.
Does anyone have any examples of why we can't just replace old decks with new decks, as they come out?
So if the new Bunker deck relies on playing Ordnance and loading it up on different ways...how do you think Expatriette will work?
They'll probably still find some way to make them the same, but different.
A little early to theorize how Expat would work when you don't even know how Bunker will work yet. Christopher did reveal that Bunker can put arbitrary cards under Ordnance, so that's different already.
Sounds like Bunker has been getting some training from The Idealist =)
The Legacy First Appearance Variant seems pretty potent, although I suppose Legacy's base Powers always are.
Does anyone have any examples of why we can't just replace old decks with new decks, as they come out?
Specific examples? No. But generally, I think it would be a safe assumption to make that the primary concern would be balance of old decks within the new ecosystem. Players are free to use their games however they want as always, but the quality of your experience will surely deviate from what is intended.
To continue on Foote's point, Christopher mentioned in the Letters Page Podcast that heroes are generally stronger and villains are generally more dangerous. So generally the speed of the game is faster. So old decks might not be able to keep up with the faster pace. So if you play with some old decks against some new decks, the old decks will feel much weaker.
Old decks feeling "weaker" is a fine example of why you might not want to mix editions. But as long as we go into it knowing that might be the case, at the moment I'm fine with that risk.
Did they show off the legacy first apperance varient somewhere? I must have missed it
If I have to guess, I would say that Bunker's Ordinance works like the Omni-Cannon, but more generalized. He discards cards and places them under his big guns, and then returns them to the trash to use his big guns.
Cult of Gloom, they shared this Google Drive folder of preview material.
FrivYeti, I thought the exact same thing.
Yeah, it makes sense that Bunker's new mechanic would be an extension of how the Omni-Cannon works. I am just really curious how they will make that mechanic unique to his deck. Expatriette's mechanic involves playing face up cards next to cards with powers on them, to enhance the effect of each power. The Idealist has a core mechanic where you load up powers with discarded face-down cards, and the power's potency increases based on the number of cards. So, for the new Bunker...does he discard cards face-down under powers, and the power changes in character the more cards it's charged with? Do his powers change based on the keywords of cards they consume? Does he get to grab Villain cards or other hero cards from play to change his powers' effects?
Wild speculation about these mechanics is how I show my excitement! I'm looking forward to seeing for myself how he plays. Getting a new spin on the older heroes is one of the things I find exciting about the new edition.
I'm guessing that, unlike Expatriette and The Idealist, Bunker will load his Cards directly from hand to under his Ordinances, without playing them. This would differentiate him from the former two, and keep in line with Omni-Cannon.
The more previews that we get to see on the Letters Page server, the more incredibly excited I am for how awesome all the new art, flavor text, and mechanics are. :D
It's very likely that mechanics for future decks will change, while the theme will try and stay the same. So, while Expatriette currently has ammo cards and such, who can say what her future holds?
As a playtester, I can say I have really enjoyed the improvements they have made to the game. Characters I didn't enjoy playing in EE (Bunker and Fanatic) are now fun thanks to their mechanics changes. It is very far from a reprint of EE with new art. I am really looking forward to how they help other less-played heroes and Setback.
The new art and mechanics are all super exciting-looking. I am not sad they are making a Definitive Edition.
... my only thought of sadness is that, while this will be pretty cool, I feel the opportunity cost of tying Adam and Christopher up for 6 years making this, instead of making an entirely new never-before-seen game that plays in the Sentinels Comics world in a new exciting entirely different way. Will we have to wait until 2027 before they work on the new exciting project? Like, for example, making Prime War work?
Prime War was not their game, it was being worked on by Lore Forge Games. C&A never would have picked it up.
I'm sure if they have a good idea for a new game, they'll find time to work on it. And there's no guarantee it would be any good.
Hmm, Omnitron's robots "Exterminate" now . . . Now where have I seen that before?
What‽ There are cultural references in Sentinels of the Multiverse‽‽‽ :-o
;-)
I do hope that they add clauses to all the Cards that get attached to other cards saying what happens when the Cards that they are attached to are destroyed, because not all of them have that. : (
(Don’t ask me to say which ones lack that clause; I don’t remember. I just remember this coming up in a Game once. And yes, I know that those Cards just get Destroyed too, it would merely be nice if they said so.)
Not all cards played next to other cards are destroyed when the other card is. If the card doesn’t say so, it just sticks around. Sky-Scraper’s Links, for instance. That’s also why Jim’s Hat lets you blow up Bounties at the start of your turn, so you can take The Ultimate Target out of play and retrieve it with a one-shot.
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. I suppose I simply made an incorrect assumption. And you know what happens when you assume . . .
I really enjoyed the preview of a couple Villain decks from the latest Kickstarter update! I can see how Omnitron changed to really lean in to his “program” aspect, and Baron Blade does seem to have a few fun new tricks up his sleeve. But, huh, I have thoughts about that Villain difficulty chart! There seem to be some big shifts in difficulty for Definitive Edition.
In the current edition, my own impression of the order of difficulty of each of these (standard) Villains is as follows, based on how often I win or lose to them:
Even at the high end of this list, I’m losing games maybe 15% of the time. So I definitely understand the desire to pump up Villain difficulty, and I also understand that Voss’ and Omnitron’s stories were supposed to be huge threatening events, and they are getting a bit of a short sell in the current edition when facing an experienced player. But I feel a bit bad for Dawn! She got leapfrogged! I wouldn’t want her to be reduced to everyday bank heist hijinks…but maybe this is more an indication of how much harder Voss and Omnitron got in Definitive Edition.
As a non-Playtester, I’m enjoying the various previews as well. : )
I also see Omnitron learning more into the predictable-machine schtick. But then, wasn’t Omni supposed to be the adaptable robot A.I. that can upgrade itself for any foe (as exemplified in Adaptive Plating Subroutine), not the systematic robot that just follows a simple, unchanging program? Now, this isn’t a criticism, I know Christopher & Adam know what’s best for their creations, I just don’t see the logic here. And I know that Omnitron still flipped predictable in the first two Editions, but now it’s more pronounced. And I realise that it still plays random cards, but still.
Yeah, @Trajector, Dawn being the hardest definitely matches my experiences. : )
The only piece it ever did on the fly to adapt was Adaptive Plating Subroutine. Otherwise it still is using its set programming to kill all humans. In the alt timeline where X came from it would rebuild and upgrade itself after each defeat. With Omnitron IX being built with the purpose of making the ultimate version of itself which became X.
Haven’t read every post in this topic, but was just looking at the KS update on variants and had a question about “first appearance” heroes.
These are the first time the “current” (in the Multiverse) iterations showed up in comics? Legacy in 1948 threw me off at first, because I thought I remembered it being 1940 that basically launched superhero comics in the Metaverse. Then I realized it was a “bold new Legacy”, so this is PP VIII and not “grandpa”, right?
I guess if they’re going that route, we’re not going to see Vernon Carter or Henry Goodman for a while… Still hyped about the whole thing!
Yeah, not sure we are ever going to get a Henry Goodman. His power set is so different from Ryan Frost that his cards can’t be used. At least with Vernon Carter he was still “man in power suit with guns”.
Yeah, Golden Age Absolute Zero is so different that he’d need a entirely new deck, not just a variant. He might work with Expatriette’s deck or something, though . . .
While I’m not not new to Sentinels, it’s only been more recently that I’ve dove head in to the fandom and games (and Letter’s Page) with the release of the RPG. I’ve been eyeing picking up the base game and then tracking down the expansions but before I had a chance I saw the DE announcement. Absolutely 100% on board for it because of the new artwork. That’s what made me decide to back it rather than pick up the current game. I love the art that’s so evocative of different eras in comics history.
Glad to have you join in, @fougerec!!! 