Where Do Effects Live?

In Oblivaeon games, where do effects live?

I’m talking about things like Legacy’s Galvanize buff, Wraith’s Stun Bolt reducing the damage a target can do, or Void Guard Dr. Medico’s Immunization.

The way it was explained to me, they “live” in the play area of the player, character, or target that created the effect, even if that thing moves Battle Zones. That doesn’t seem like a big deal, but it can do weird things when you’re switching Battle Zones 

Case in point, if VG Dr. Medico uses Immunization in Battle Zone 1, and all other players take damage, but then Dr. Medico is incapacitated and the new hero moves to Battle Zone 2, the Immunized heroes won’t be immune to damage until they also move to Battle Zone 2 at some point before that player’s next turn.

Or, if Wraith uses Stun Bolt on Oblivaeon, but then moves to the other Battle Zone, Oblivaeon won’t do less damage unless Oblivaeon and Wraith are in the same Battle Zone again. So, if Wraith is going to Stun Bolt the big guy, she also has to stay with him or her stunning effect goes away with her… unless they come back in contact, then it restarts.

The fact that the effects always travel with the origin and never with the recipient is what makes this weird. I don’t imagine that Wraith is carefully removing her Stun Bolts when she leaves the area, then asking for a time out if they come within reach before the beginning of her next turn. The Immunization shots Dr. M distributes don’t seem like they would only work when you’re around him.

For now, I’ll play it this way, but it’s a rule that doesn’t seem to make sense as it currently stands.

I agree.

In a normal villain fight, if Legacy uses Galvanize and is knocked out, the Galvanize doesn't immediately wear off. It lasts on the other heroes until the start of his turn. Whereas, if he plays Inspiring Presence and is knocked out, or the card is destroyed, the effect wears off immediately because the card providing it is no longer in play. Same thing with Wraith's Stun Bolt: the damage debuff on whatever target she hit doesn't go away because she or her card are suddenly no longer in the game.

This has set up a clear precedent on how ongoing effects work in Sentinels that absolutely makes no sense with Oblivaeon as currently implemented in the digital game, for the reasons you state here. I could see an effect like Galvanize moving away from a battle zone with Legacy, maybe, but not something like Stun Bolt or Syncopated Onslaught, where the effect is applied to a target for a set duration. But it's one of those things I can live with, I suppose, it's probably not going to trip me up that often.

You have to keep in mind that each battle one is like playing two different games.  The source of affects stay with that hero.  So if a hero leaves a Battlezone that affect no longer affects anything in that Battlezone.  If they carry an affect like Galvanize it then applies to the new Battlezone they are part of.  I realize it can come across as odd but I think it keeps things a bit simpler as to whether you need to track an affect in a Battlezone or not. 

I will concede that Galvanize may not be a good example of this. Thinking of how this would work in Battle, I can imagine two scenarios:

• Legacy says, “Go be heroes”, and for a while, the heroes carry this support with them, no matter where they roam
• Legacy is keeping the team together to be more awesome. “Wraith, up there, Tachyon, 500 feet to the side, Guise, please stop licking me.”

I think the second instance makes sense and would travel with Legacy. But the first instance isn’t entirely out of the realm of possibility.

That still doesn’t explain Stun Bolt or Immunization. The way I see it, if I were playing this on the table, where the reminder token would go should be where the effect stays. Stun Bolt puts a -1 Damage Token on the Target, Immunization puts an Immune to Damage Token on the heroes that take damage.

You are welcome to do that on tabletop but what has been ruled to be implemented in the video game will be affects stick with the source of it.  

I’m in the video game beta, as well, which is how this revelation came about.

If the video game is supposed to be true to the tabletop game, they should be played consistently. With that in mind, what is currently being ruled for the video game is an absolute nightmare to track and implement on paper. This leads me to believe that it either wasn’t intended to be that way, or it was a game design oversight, and I think it would at least be worth another glance from our wonderful game creators.

I would suggest bringing that up to Handelabra in the beta boards rather than coming here if you’re a beta tester as well. 

The rule is written in the rulebook, and the digital version follows it: "Cards and effects in one battle zone cannot affect or be affected by anything in the other battle zone, unless there is game text that says otherwise."

It's not inconsistent at all with classic/team games, which you can consider as taking place in a single battle zone.

If Stun Bolt is in the first battle zone, its effect works on targets there, even if the Wraith is incapacitated, just like a classic/team game. It cannot affect targets in the other battle zone, just like in a classic/team game it can't affect targets in a whole other game of Sentinels.

I understand you may feel there's a thematic disconnect, but the mechanics are fairly straightforward and come from that single rule in the rulebook.

That’s not the question. The question is “Where is the Effect?”

Using Stun Bolt to hit a target from Battle Zone 1 to Battle Zone 2 clearly Breaks the rules.

But if I hit something in Battle Zone 1, then Wraith or the target moves to Battle Zone 2, it stops working until they get back together. That’s not what the rule says. The rule says cards and effects can’t affect something in the other battle zone. This is why we need to know where the effects “live”.

If the card is causing the effect, it would go away when the card was removed or Wraith was incapacitated, so the card can’t be where the effect is.

If Wraith is causing the effect, it would go away if she were removed from the game entirely, such as on page 3 of Oblivaeon. I don’t think it does that either. (Haven’t tested this.)

The effect moves with something, since it can be resumed if both targets end up together in the other Battle Zone, so the effect doesn’t exist in a specific Battle Zone.

The only other logical place for the effect to live would be with the target, which would mean it should move with the target between Battle Zones and always be in the same zone as the target. The effect and the target are still in the same zone. It should still work until it’s appropriate expiration.

This is the tabletop forum, and it’s a tabletop question. How do you track this on the table, or was this an accident in design?

Your question is based on an incorrect assumption (and believe me, most of us held it for a long time before official clarification came through).  Effects do not have locations.  They do not "live" in a place.

If someone uses an untargeted effect with a duration, like Galvanize, it stays with them.  If someone uses a targeted effect with a duration, it functions only as long as the source and the target are in the same zone.  If one of the two moves zones, the effect is suppressed.  I assume, though have not seen clarified, that if the second target then moves to the same zone as the first, the effect resumes.

The weird thing, and the one I'm hung up on, is that a card cannot affect another card if the first card moves to the other battle zone, but it can affect another card if it is removed from the game entirely.  In fact, I believe, and I'm happy to be corrected, if The Wraith uses Stun Bolt on a target and then is removed from the game somehow, and then the other target changes zones, the effect will persist!  And if my assumption above is correct, if The Wraith uses Stun Bolt, then moves to another zone, the effect will stop working, but if The Wraith is then removed from the game, it will start working again.

Thematically nonsensical?  Yes.  Unintuitive?  Yes.  But a logical inference from the way the rules are phrased.

The rule says “… effects in one Battle Zone…”

The effect has a location that must be determined to finish processing the rule.

What is that location? Without it, the rule can’t be applied consistently, if at all, to effects.

The location is the source of affect.   If that source leaves a Battlezone it no longer affects things in that Battlezone.  

I can see a weak argument for cards in discard piles being a source, but are they? Are cards that are removed from the game still in a Battle Zone?

I’m not sure offhand what you are referring to with your first question.   As to the second question a hero removed from the game would still be associated with a play area and that play area is associated with the last Battlezone they were in.  

The rule says “Cards and effects in one battle zone cannot affect or be affected by anything in the other battle zone, unless there is game text that says otherwise."

You said the “the location is the source of the effect”. So a card like Throat Jab, which is a One-Shot, enters play, then goes to the discard pile. Where is the effect it creates, so I can check to see if it stays in the same Battle Zone as the thing I hit with it when it attempts to do damage?

The source is the Wraith for that one-shot.   If she moves to a different Battlezone than her original target then that target is no longer impacted.   If she and that targe t stays in that Battlezone it lasts until the start of her turn.  If Wraith and the target of Throats stay in the same Battlezone then she is incapped and/or removed it lasts until the start of what would have been her next turn.  

It doesn't make sense thematically, it doesn't make sense mechanically, it doesn't make sense as the rule is written, but it's not the first ruling in this game that I will choose to overlook when playing on my own time. There's not really any sense in arguing over it. :/

Considering that pretty much all the other rulings do make sense thematically, mechanically and as written, this one sticks out like a sore thumb.

I don’t agree.  There are certainly cases I can understand the argument as to why it causes confusion but overall it makes sense how it works.   Thematically to me for example Argent Adept can’t sustain his magic across the world/universe.  Mechanically each Battle Zone is its own game. 

I could understand it if the effect just fizzles once the target and source are no longer in the same battle zone, but what's the logic thematically or mechanically about it resuming once they're back together?  

The target gets stunned by bolt, the stun fades, and suddenly they're stunned again when they see Wraith again?

I would say thematically the idea is not that Wraith is shooting a stun bolt just once.  When you use that power as long as Wraith is around that target she is continuing to hit that target.   When she leaves for another Battle Zone she isn’t hitting them anymore but if they together again she continues with her spray of Stun Bolts.  

If that were the case, then if Wraith were incapacitated, she would stop her barrage of Stun Bolts, and the effect would stop. Which it doesn’t… suggesting that it was just one Stun Bolt. Either way you slice it, thematically it certainly does seem to be inconsistent/nonsensical.

Yeah, but then why does it continue to work if she gets removed from the game entirely?

The way I handle it at home is that getting moved to the other zone is basically like being removed from the game.  It's easy, consistent to implement, and makes intuitive sense.

We’ve been told being incapped doesn’t mean the hero is dead.   They are still trying to help.  

If she gets removed from the game by, e.g. Final Wasteland eating her, the effect still continues until her turn would have been. so - thematically it certainly does seem to be inconsistent/nonsensical.

Thematically it works for me and nothing said so far has really changed my view.  I would say the same applies vice versa.   Bottom line whether you like the ruling or not for any reason it is the ruling we have.   If you don’t go by that on Tabletop or use your own rules nothing will stop you.   However, if you play digitally that is what you should expect when playing in that form.