Oblivaeon battle zone rules question.

Hey gang!

im curious about how cards that’s cross battle zones interact. Here is my example. 

Visionary plays wrest the mind on a scion. That scions moves to another battle ground. 

1) does Wrest stay with the scion as it moves?

2) can visionary activate the redicrection on wrest if she and her wrested target are in opposite zones?

3) if you can redirect cross zones, does visionary still deal herself 3 damage?

also related but slightly different perhaps. This times it’s Twist Ether. Can a twisted hero still +\- their damage from the opposite zone?

First, Wrest the Mind couldn’t be played on a Scion as those are Villain Character Cards.  If on an Aeon Man Card that switched Battle Zones it should stay when it moves.  For question two, assuming an Aeon Man still, if they are in separate Battle Zones you can’t activate it.  

Basically cards that require the hero to activate won’t work across battle zones.  Like Ultimate Target wouldn’t give Chrono a power use if he’s in a different zone but By Any Means would still give a Damage boost regardless of whether they are in the same battle zone or not.  

On a related note, If Akash’thriya put one of her primordial seeds into environment zone 1 then moved to zone 2, what happens when the seed is played?

Does it move across zones to Akash’thriya’s play area or stay in zone 1? If it does move across zones, which zone would it’s “played from the environment” ability affect?

It would stay in the zone it was played in, and the effect would go off, because it was played from the environment deck.

This is correct.

Only cards that cause 'the player that played them to do something' cease to work when that player isn't in that zone.

What I'm wondering is: what does Faultless count as when he flips? He's no longer a Scion, but is he a hero target? Is he a hero character? Can he be moved to the other zone by Oblivaeon's attacks? Can he be healed?

Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense.  When Akash'Thriya's cards are played from the environment deck, they don't go to the environment play area, they go to hers.  Would they take effect in the environment they're played from?  Would they take effect where Akash'Thriya is, since that's where they'd end up?  Or would they fizzle and be destroyed because they can't "reach" Akash'Thriya's play area from the other zone?

[quote= robertmaxfreeman ]

What I'm wondering is: what does Faultless count as when he flips? He's no longer a Scion, but is he a hero target? Is he a hero character? Can he be moved to the other zone by Oblivaeon's attacks? Can he be healed?

[/quote]I don't have the card in front of me, but IIRC it says exactly what he is on the card.  I believe it says he's a hero target.

I had to do a little research, but it appears you are correct. I was wrong.  Regardless of what deck a card is played 'from', it goes to the play area of the hero that owns that card. So until we have an errata that says otherwise, the seeds would go to the zone A kash'Thriya is currently in, regardless of which environment deck the card was played from.

That's kind of thematically fitting, seeing as to how she's a spirit of the earth and all.

Faultless is a hero target, but not a character card (like rewards).

I’m cloudy on whether flipping him counts as a scion being removed from play, but I’m leaning towards yes.

I treated him as though it counted, otherwise presumably he never counts as leaving play (since he's no longer a Scion once he flips), which would just be weird :D.

Yeah, and I forgot about the Imbued Vitality thing too.

Christopher tweeted an answer to this: "card loses [keyword]" triggers "[keyword] leaves play" effects.
 

Isn't it still a character card, though?  The Representative of Earth's attached hero is still a character card, so there's precedent for a non-player hero character card.  I'm not seeing anything to suggest Faultless stops being one.

So, if I have this correct:

1. When Scion flips he is no longer a Scion, therefore a Scion has left play.

2. Flipped, he is now a hero target, and since there's no reason for him to lose his character status, he's technically a Hero character, even though the game never outright says he's one.

It’s a character card by definition. But it’s not a hero character card by definition. It is a hero target. 

It’s in the same weird realm as Heroic Infinitor 

So do pre-oblivaeon hero cards like inspiring presence affect only heros in the battle zone of that hero or are they a bump everywhere ? Inspiring presence says “increase damage dealt by hero targets by 1” so if my hero is not in legacy’s battle zone but is still a hero target do I get the boost ?

Generally, effects don't touch things in the other Battle Zone at all.  So if you're not in Legacy's Battle Zone, no boost.  A few new things in the Oblivaeon cards have explicit text that overrides this, saying things like "destroy two environment cards in both Battle Zones."

Yeah, that's the way I've been playing it. Unless a card specifically says otherwise, cards in separate battle zones are as separate as cards in completely different games of sentinels.

I'm curious about "until start of next turn" effects. So let's say standard Legacy activates Galvanize- obviously, anyone who's in the opposite battle zone doesn't gain the benefit. But this leads me to two questions. I'll write the rest of this post assuming Legacy is in Zone 1:

1) Does a hero lose the benefit of Galvanize if they move from Zone 1 to Zone 2? 2) Does a hero gain the benefity of they move from Zone 2 to Zone 1? 3) If Legacy is moved to Zone 2, do all heroes in Zone 1 lose the effect and all heroes in Zone 2 gain the effect?

I'm guessing these are either all yes or all no, as it seems inconsistent for them to have different answers- but I'm not even entirely sure about that. Until I get an official answer, I'm going to play as though they're all yes, as that's my first instinct, but I'm not at all confident in my decision- I only make it because I have to make one in order to play before getting an official answer.

Some cards give an effect that attaches to a target, like Galvanize. Others are contingent on a card remaining in play, like Inspiring Presence. Galvanize would hit all heroes in the current zone, and they then have a power-up that moves with them. Inspiring Presence, on the other hand, affects heroes that are in that battle zone at the time they deal damage.

No.

2. Does a hero gain the benefit if they move from Zone 2 to Zone 1?
   No.
3. If Legacy is moved to Zone 2, do all heroes in Zone 1 lose the effect and all heroes in Zone 2 gain the effect?
   No.

You can get these same answers by asking what happens if Legacy is incapped and then resurrected (by Dr. Medico or Temple of Zhu Long).

Medico has no way of resurrecting a hero.   

I would have thought that if Legacy used Galvanize in battle zone 1, than all damage dealt by any hero targets in battle zone 1 for the subsequent round would be boosted regardless of where they were when Legacy used the power.
Or Yes, Yes, No to Mariofanatics 3 questions.

I’m thinking of the way Mechanical Golems are affected by Galvanize and how Galvanize stays in effect for the rest of the round when Legacy is incapacitated… I suspect we won’t know for sure until the digital version.

That's pretty much what I was asking previously regarding Tempest's incap ability of making everyone immune to a damage type - I wasn't sure if the immunity affected the zone (and thus only heroes who were in said zone, regardless of whether they were present when Tempest actually triggered the ability) or the heroes who were in the zone at the time of activation. So far it doesn't seem to have been resolved. At the time of playing it in the game we just said the immunity affected the battle zone, so heroes moving into said zone afterwards got to gain said immunity. I can't remember what we decided with regard to Tempest moving zones - whether the immunity went with him or stayed put.

I disagree. The video game treats Galvanize sort of like an “aura”: while it’s running, it affects all hero targets. For instance, if Unity or Captain Cosmic play a target after Galvanize is used, they immediately benefit even though they weren’t in play at the time it was activated. So I’d say the effect is tied to Legacy and affects all hero targets in his zone at the time they do damage, same as Inspiring Presence.

This is how I read it also. I think of Galvanize as an ongoing effect, that will increase damage dealt by hero targets. If Legacy moved Battle Zones, I think it should stay in his orginal Battle Zone, and if a hero moved to Battle Zone 1, they would gain the effect.

Oh, interesting, that indeed would go the opposite direction from what I said.

What if Legacy uses Galvanize, then gets incapped; do hero targets still get the +1? What if Legacy is removed from the game by The Final Wasteland, do heroes still get the boost until it would have been the start of Legacy's turn?

The bonus still applies until Legacy’s start of turn

I actually thought of that alternate interpretation after I posted.  I wouldn't play it that way because it would be hard to keep track of; I'd rather keep it "pinned" to Legacy, even if he moved.  But having it be a stationary effect is also a valid interpretation that makes a lot of sense considering how it interacts with Unforgiving Wasteland.   I'd love to see this officially clarified.

If your interpretation were right, MindWanderer, then a hero could get Galvanized and then move to the other Battle Zone, where Legacy's Start of Turn might never occur... they'd be permanently Galvanized, since they would never "see" Legacy's Start of Turn if Legacy were not in the same Battle Zone.

I assume you mean that second idea, the one I didn’t support. But I don’t think you have to be able to “see” a duration trigger for it to affect you. For instance, I do think Counterpart Bulwark remains attached to its target wherever they move, and expires on AA’s start of turn even if he’s in the other zone.

Sounds reasonable to me. Presumably different Battle Zones have the same time zone-- let's assume they do, even ones in different dimensions :)

The first step when heading to another dimension?
Synchronize watches!

Finally played a full OblivAeon game. The thing I found most confusing about battle zones was the inconsistent wording on cards. Whenever text refers to a thing that’s obviously in one zone or the other - “hero,” “target,” “villain,” and so on, that’s fine and clear, but other times text would refer to something on the table like “each play area” or “objective cards” and so forth. The best example that comes to mind is Lucky Break, which says “each player” does something. The players are the humans sitting around the table, so does it really mean EACH of them? Or just the ones whose hero is in the battle zone with Lucky Strike (how we played it)?

Everything is in one zone or the other, even players. The one weirdness I can think of is the scion and aeon men decks, which are in both zones as long as there’s a scion or aeon man in it, respectively. So yes, even the “players” are in the zone their hero is in. I agree that’s a weird way to phrase it.

One thing I need to clarify for the next time I run it is that incapped characters stay in the play area of the player who played them. While any player in that zone may benefit from a used incap ability, it is the player who played them who decides whether to use an incap ability, not which zone they are in.

As when Faultless flips, he/it? is no longer a Scion, a devastation token should be removed as a scion has left play.

Still no official clarification on Galvanize?

Nothing official until John has and writes up the rulings he gets from Christopher to add to Fireside Chats.  

Is this the official ruling?  Incap abilities and how they interact with battle zones has been my one major point of confusion with Oblivaeon.

So, a few follow up questions, to make sure I understand:

1. Can any player use any incap ability in any player’s play area, or can you only use incap abilities in your own play area?

2. When you use an incap ability does if affect your battle zone (as in any character is affected by it if they move into that battle zone and no longer affected when they move out) or does it affect the characters in your battle zone (as in if they’re in your battle zone they’re affected and once they move out they’re still affected) or does it affect the characters in your battle zone but only as long as they’re in your battle zone (as in they’re affected initially but if they move out they’re not affected any more but if they move back in they’re affected again)?

#2 obviously isn’t an issue for the easy ones like play a card or use a power, but for something like base Tempest’s ignore a damage type, it’s an important clarification.

I actually wonder #2 for more than incap abilities, but for something like Galvanize as well (in which case I’m guessing it just affects your battle zone and any character that is currently in your battle zone benefits when they’d attack, even if they moved in later).  But I could be wrong on that.

Regarding point one, you only use Incaps in your own play area. It's just that it might be one that you use on someone else (like letting them use a power or "the next time they take damage, do a thing", etc).

For point two, I think maybe it depends specifically on the ability being used - some things probably apply to the targeted hero even if they move while others might be a passive effect on anyone in that Battle Zone (so if someone was there when the ability was used and then moves away, the effect doesn't stick on them when they leave). I think this kind of thing is what's awaiting clarification.

MigrantP confirmed in Discord once, though it's still unofficial, that abilities that affect all heroes or all heroes targets, like Galvanize, remain with the hero who activated them, while targeted abilities remain with their target. So presumably Tempest's incap would affect all heroes in whatever battle zone he's in when the damage is inflicted.

My own rule of thumb is that if it would affect a target that came into play after the ability was used, it's basically an "aura" that sticks with its user.

OK, that makes sense.

The rule about only being able to use incaps in your own play area isn't something that's established in the rules of the game and I just missed, is it?  Was that a later clarification?

It'll definitely make Oblivaeon more challenging if we can't all use Tempest's incap power! :-)

I thought Galvanize took effect at the moment the power is used, and then lasts until the start of Legacy’s player’s turn regardless of whatever else happens (like Legacy being incapacitated). 

I tend to think of it as:

Some heroes like Legacy have their effects because of their direct presence. Legacy gives you a +1 because he’s just in your vicinity being Legacy even if he’s incapped, Ra gives you a +1 because he’s standing there constantly setting everything on fire, etc.

In contrast, someone like Argent just poofs a one-time thing of stuff onto you and sends you off, it’s a change done to you specifically that doesn’t require the other person’s presence to persist for a time afterwards.

Agree. Galvanize is BZ-constrained, Things that target specific targets are not.

See also: Bounties, Links, Akash'Thriya's cards in the trash, etc.

If you're going to quote me, please actually quote me. I do not recall ever having said "targeted abilities remain with their target" and that is not the case. From the rulebook: 

“Unless stated otherwise, cards and effects in a battle zone cannot affect or be affected by anything in the other battle zone.”

I’m gonna quote you on that.

Sorry, I misunderstood and don't have access to the Discord logs at the moment. I know we were told that By Any Means continues to function if separated from Chrono-Ranger, but Twist the Ether does not (because Visionary can't make decisions regarding it).

So if, say, AA uses Syncopated Onslaught on another hero, and then that hero is moved to the other battle zone, does the effect end? Would the effect resume if they were back in the same battle zone before the effect expired? I haven't heard of anyone playing it either way before.

Is Syncopated Onslaught in the same battle zone as the hero? If so, it can affect the other hero. If not, it can't. That's the rule I quoted above.

I'm going to admit I'm actually with MindWanderer and McBehrer, then, in that's not at all the way I would have expected it to work.

I'm even more surprised that the target has to remain in the same zone as Syncopated Onslaught, not Argent Adept. After all, the effect persists if Syncopated Onslaught is destroyed. (And AA and his tunes, or their equivalent, can be in separate zones with Guise shenanigans.)

The question is whether "affect" checks instantaneously or continually. To take an extreme example, damage. Damage isn't removed if the source and target stop being in the same zone. It just checks once and is then permanent. Effects with durations could work the same way.

This Fireside Chat can't come soon enough.

I'm curious how you think that AA and his songs can be in separate battle zones.

If it helps, you can think of the two battle zones as two separate games of Sentinels. An effect in one of the games cannot have any bearing on the other game.

I admit my flaw is that I tend to approach the game at least partially from a thematic level... which Sentinels being what it is, is usually a fairly congruent approach. This is one case where it apparently isn't.

Vocalize on Uh, Yeah, I’m That Guy copying AA"s play area.  Or Guise using I Can Do That Too or Lemme See That to use a Perform, same deal.

Or better yet, base Argent Adept as the Representative of Earth. Not only could he and his song be in separate zones, both could be removed from the game entirely and the song’s effect would persist.

If Guise and The Argent Adept are in different battle zones, Uh Yeah, I'm That Guy (or any other card belonging to Guise) is not aware of The Argent Adept or any of his cards.

Sure, The Argent Adept could be a Representative of Earth. The rule about battle zones still applies.

As usual you are free to play the game on the tabletop however you like. The digital version will implement the rules as intended by Christopher.

I don’t think you understand the problem then. It’s not about whether they’re in the same battle zone at the time of activation. It’s about what happens when they move afterwards.

Example: Greatest Legacy and PW AA are in zone 1 in the Celestial Tribunal. Vanilla AA is the Representative of Earth. Legacy lets AA use his power on Syncopated Onslaught, targeting both heroes. Then:

1. Representative of Earth is destroyed and PWAA is incapped. Both vanilla AA and Syncopated Onslaught are removed from the game and are no longer in either battle zone. What happens? (Answer: this can happen in the normal game. The effect persists until the environment turn.)
2. PWAA moves to the other zone at the start of his turn. Now Syncopated Onslaught and one target are in one zone, and the power's user and the other target are in the other zone. What happens? (This is what's under discussion.)

I understand just fine, thank you.

1. The effect persists until the environment turn, and only affects the targets when they are in that battle zone.

2. The effect persists until the environment turn, and only affects the targets when they are in the battle zone with Syncopated Onslaught.

OK, then what about when both happen? What if SO moves and then is removed from the game? What if it is removed from the game and then the hero who replaced its owner moves to the other zone? I'm guessing it stays with its original play area, but clearly my intuition is not trustworthy here.

Oh, and what about Dark Mind? That's another way SO can be in the other battle zone--it can go under Dark Mind and then AA can move to the other zone. And what if AA is incapped at that point? If the effect stays tied to Dark Mind's zone, then what if it's under Dark Mind when AA is incapped and then he moves?

I'm not going to try to answer every edge case question you have, because I'm not Christopher. I will just refer you to the rulebook once again.

So if Guise copies every ongoing card another player has, and then that player switches battle zones Guise instantly loses his copies of the ongoing cards? Even though they were in the same zone when he copied them? That's beyond counterintuitive.

Yes. The same thing would happen if Guise became an Isolated Hero with Miss Information (which also works very similar to how Battle Zones work).

The same thing would happen if that hero was KO'd and those ongoings went out of play, right?  Makes sense to me.  Going out of your battlezone is like not being in play as far as your card is concerned.

Guise working this way is the least confusing interaction to me. Uh Yeah constantly copies the other hero's current ongoings, even if they leave or enter play, so if they weren't in his zone, of course he can't copy them anymore. What's bizarre to me is when an effect can continue if its source leaves the game entirely, but not if it moves to the other zone.

Agreed.  For my own better understanding, what are some examples of that phenomenon?

I'm not entirely sure, but hasn't it been said that some effects which have durations (eg Galvanise, Counterpoint Bulwark) will wear off if the hero they belong to moves zones? And yet in a non-Oblivaeon game, if said hero is incapped, they continue to last until they normally would (usually the start of that hero's next turn) because they have specified that duration.

Does Galvanise stll stick around until the start of Legacy's turn if he is removed from the game by the Final Wasteland?  That might be a better comparison to switching battle zones.

Yes, removed or not Legacy still has a turn and the Galvanize affect lasts until the start of his turn comes up.  

Here's my understanding, which could still easily be wrong:

• Untargeted effects, like Galvanize, are "attached" to the card the text of that effect is written on.  So if Finest Legacy uses the power and then moves to the other zone, it affects all hero targets in the zone he moved to and no longer affects the hero targets in the zone he came from.
  • However, if that card is removed from play or the text on it is removed, it remains in effect in the zone it was last in until the effect expires.
• Targeted effects, like Counterpoint Bulwark, require both the card the text of the effect is written on and the target of that effect to remain in the same zone.  So if Counterpoint Bulwark is used on Unity and then either AA or Unity move to the other zone, the effect is suppressed until such a time as they're in the same zone again.
  • Again, if the card is removed from play, it remains in effect if the target remains in the zone it was last in.
  • I'm not sure what happens if the text on it is removed (e.g. if someone uses the power on Uh Yeah I'm That Guy copying AA's play area with Counterpoint Bulwark in it).  I believe it continues to function even if AA and Uh Yeah are no longer in the same zone as long as Uh Yeah and the target are in the same zone, but I could be wrong.  It should work the same was as Isolated Hero, which someone could test (not with Counterpoint Bulwark in particular, since the video game doesn't implement that, but other ongoing with powers could be.)
  • I'm also not sure what happens if the card goes to a different play area (e.g. is destroyed and put under Dark Mind).  I'm inferring that if Counterpoint Bulwark goes under Dark Mind and then AA moves to the other zone, the effect continues if Dark Mind and the target are in the same zone.  I could definitely be wrong.