Fixer Point

So I've been playing a lot of Sentinels lately. So much so I may need a 12 step program soon. But until that days comes, it has become my obsession to figure out a way to get all of Mr. Fixer's styles and weapons out at the same time.

My obsession began after I decided to try and beat every villain in the game with a single team of 4 heros. A super team I like to call "Punch All the Faces". It consists of Legacy, Team Leader Tachyon, Chrono Ranger, and Mr. Fixer. I was battling The Chairman in the Time Cataclysm when this wonderous event which I'd only read about in the forums occurred. Mr. Fixer had his Jackhandle out and Dual Crowbars in hand when the environment played Fixed Point. I finally found the ultimate joy of the completely broken killing machine who is Mr. Fixer.

The problem: How do I keep Fixed Point out for multiple rounds, long enough to get all of Mr. Fixer's stuff out?

There isn't any way to keep Fixed Point out permanently but you could setup your team with Argent Adept to get more card plays.  

Using Omnitron-X and Rook City Wraith can speed through the Environment deck. Have Ra with Excavation, allowing for repeated stacking of th Environment deck, thus Fixed can always be ontop of the Deck. The Argent Adept can also repeatedly play Vernal Sonata to keep Excavation continueing to be drawn. Once that has been set up, Omnitron-X would switch to using Bio-Engineering Beam to destroy Fixed Point, allowing it to be in the trash when Ra plays Excavation.

The turn order would be something like: Rook City Wraith, The ARgent Adept, Mister Fixer, Omnitron-X, and Ra. Rook City Wraith being first just in case Fixed Point is revealed, allowing it to be used that round.

I never even thought of Excavation. I'll definately give that team a try and see if I can make it happen.

I was really hoping for a hero who could move a card from the bottom of any deck to the top of the deck. Then with Freedom V Legacy (Coming Soon) you could keep that sucker in play indefinately.

I also completely forgot about Santa Guise. I could always just have him keep gift giving until Fixed Point comes out and then hope all those presents have that one thing I asked Santa for...all the pain. So maybe Grandpa Legacy, Argent Adept, Captain Cosmic, Santa Guise, and Mr. Fixer?

1. If Ra is last and Incapped then you can put Fixed point on the bottom of the deck and then have KNYFE Rogue Agent us her base power on her turn (as she is first in the line) to put Fixed Point back into play!
2. Prime Wardens Argent can play a bottom card too
3. Incapped Super Scientific Tachyon could team up with incapped Ra to move it back to the top of the deck
4. Incapped Dark Visionary could just put it back on top of the deck every turn, Rook City Wraith could then play it
5. Writhe can put the bottom card of a deck on the top, so any of the "move to the bottom" powers mentioned could help out

Infinite Fixer turns of Fixed Point!

I'm pretty sure Prime Wardens Argent Adept only puts the bottom card of his deck into play.

Yeah, he only plays his own bottom card. Rogue Knyfe gets to choose.

Oops! I knew there was a reason I didn't include him in my first pass!

Back to serving drinks for you, Argent.

On that note, I have a question that probably has been discussed at some point, but I don't remember seeing. I know from this discussion that if Santa Guise causes Limited cards to be revealed that were already in play that they'd go into the trash, but:

1. Is this the same for when no Limited cards were already in play, but multiple are revealed?
2. Is this the same if Fixed Point is out, or would this allow multiple Limited cards to be in play?

1. I don't know how you do it Christmas Morning but Santa Guise only gives you your presents one at a time so the first Limited card is revealed and put into play and then any further unwrappings of the card are met with a fake smile and a rendition of "Just what I always wanted" as it slow gets moved towards the discard pile

2. A Limited card that tries to enter play fails, no matter how it attempts this it never actually enters play. Fixed Point or not his has no baring on what happens to a Limited card with the same name that tries to enters play.

Or to put it simply, you are correct in both cases!

We talked to Christopher about this last week. What you describe is what happens in the video game right now, but there's a problem: the card is already in play, it's just face down. The solution we arrived upon is that if a limited card is flipped face up, and there is another copy in play, and Fixed Point is in play, then the limited card just flips back face down and stays where it is.

That seems like an odd conclusion based on how Limited cards works and what Santa Guise's power says which is treat them as they just came into play.    Other affects which would try to put a limited or otherwise invalid card into play from top of deck go immediately to the trash.  

I am really liking these clarifications to individual cards (as opposed to general rules) less and less, they are so much more cumbersome.

Also it makes seem like you are regifting if you get to flip copies back over which I don't think Santa Guise would approve of.   Sometimes you just don't get what you want.

If anything, it makes the power even more powerful. It's effectively insurance against Ongoing or Equipment wipes.

My guess is it's the distinction between something entering play, and something being treated as though it had just entered play. In most cases (Limited card exists, another Limited card is being played), they go to the trash instead of entering play, so "coming into play" never happens, and the two cards are never in play at once. In the Santa Guise case (Limited card face-up, another Limited card flips face up), it successfully came into play face-down (meaning the wording on the card wasn't active, included the "limited" keyword), and is already in play when it's flipped face-up; this means we're faced with two Limited cards, both in play, one being treated as though it had just entered play, something that wouldn't normally happen.

Could absolutely be wrong about all this, mind!

It adds another exception to what is a pretty general and accepted rule.   And I also liked that it meant for Guise he wasn't the ideal target to reveal cards since half his deck is limited cards.  

I don't think it's an exception. It's the only thing that you can do and still satisfy both rules. If it went to the trash, that would be an exception to the indestructible rule. If it stayed in play, that would be an exception to the limited rule.

It's not a card-specific ruling, BTW. Fixed Point just happens to be the only thing that makes hero cards indestructible that way, I think.

If I attempt to play a limited card through Timeshift or Ammo without a valid gun those still go immediately to the trash regardless of Fixed Point being out.  

That's because they weren't already in play in any form.  Whereas here the face-down cards ARE already in play and are therefor protected by Fixed Point.

Still not a very compelling argument since you can't have two limited cards of the same name in play.   Since Santa Guise is treating them as coming into play they should react the same way it does in other instances.

They would, except they are indestructible, and so cannot leave play. If they went to the trash, that would be an exception to that rule.

It's very awkward and not treating the card as if it were just put into play.   

You're welcome to debate it with Christopher if you like, but that is the ruling that he came to in our discussions.

Yeah that won't happen.  I've tried such in the past with no luck. 

Limited cards with copies on the field usually don’t enter play at all, I thought. They get discarded before entering play. So I don’t understand how treating then like they were just put into play is relevant.

That's the way I see it, too.

You treat the card as if being put into play.

It can't be put into play because it's Limited.

It can't be made indestructible because it never actually entered play, therefore it's discarded.

I think you misunderstand me.

My point is that Santa Guise says "Treat those cards as if they were just put into play."  Limited cards are discarded directly - do not pass go, do not collect $200, do not stop in play (If they did stop in play, they would come into conflict with Fixed Point).  So the point of time that Santa Guise is describing is one that Limited cards do not reach under normal circumstances.  Normally, they do not get into play where they could interact with Fixed Point.  But Santa Guise flips them as "having just entered play", which is under the purview of Fixed Point.

I guess it's a question of, do you consider entering play to happen before the check for Limitedness (which I guess involves an implicit 'reveal this card'). Nothing happens simultaneously in Sentinels, after all.

The text says "Treat those cards as if they were just put into play." and if I'm treating a duplicate limited card as it were just put into play it would go immediately to the trash.  Fixed Point shouldn't change that as there are others means of attempting or being forced to play a limited card which would still result in it going to the trash even though Fixed Point is out.  

Fixed Point changes it because the card is already in play, in addition to being treated as if it was just put into play. So it's indestructible, and it cannot leave play.

Fixed Point shouldn't change those rules.  Being face down and in play shouldn't trump the rule on trying to play duplicate limited cards.

So what would be the ruling on Wrest the Mind? It isn't limited but it requires a valid target would it do the same if revealed by Santa Guise's power

It doesn't trump any rule. It does the only valid thing that it can do within the existing rules. I never said Fixed Point changes the rules, I said that it changes the situation.

Wrest the Mind is in fact limited, so it would work the same.

What about Ammo without a valid gun to attach to?   I still would say Fixed Point is trumping the Limited rule.  

Ammo cards are not limited, so they don't have anything to do with the clarification above.

But would the Ammo cards go to the trash like they would if played from hand in that situation?   Do they just stay in play without ending attached to anything or do they flip face down?

We can ask Christopher. I don't make the rulings, we just implement them.

Similar cases to the Ammo are Aggression Modulator link card and Wrest the Mind.   If those don't have valid targets when revealed with Fixed Point what happens with them? Normally trying to put them into play, Fixed Point or not, results in them going to the trash.

I know you don't make rulings MigrantP but you are defending it so therefore I'm trying to make my points in opposition to it.   Fixed Point does end up trumping a lot of rules with cards that normally don't happen.   Mr Fixer's tools are the prime example where normally they should just go to your hand but Fixed Point prevents that this trumping the card text for the Tools.   This ruling seems to be trumping what would normally happen otherwise with Limited cards revealed by Santa Guise because of Fixed Point.  My main objection is just that they flip back face down which is not something that seems like an obvious conclusion without going through these forums.

What you seem to be ignoring, and I keep trying to emphasize, is that the face down card is already in play. Therefore, if Fixed Point is in play, it is indestructible. When it's flipped face-up, it does not leave play in order to be treated as if it enters play. It's still in play, and by the definition of indestructible, it cannot leave play for any reason. But since it's limited, and another copy is in play, it is not permitted to stay in play. The only action that satisifies both of these existing rules is to flip the card back face down, keeping the card in play but making it no longer have a limited keyword. There is no "trumping" involved.

Asking questions about ammo/etc do not pertain to this, and I can't answer those without talking to Christopher first.

Am I gonna have to turn this thread around?

I'm not ignoring that piece I'm going by how Santa Guise's power reads for the reveal. This ruling just feels clunky and unintuitive.  Regardless, with that being the ruling on duplicate limited cards then similar should occur in the other instances I asked about as they aren't valid card plays but they were already in play.  

MigrantP,

I think something's getting lost in the conversation. Powerhound is asking "If Santa Guise reveals an ammo card while there is no gun in play and Fixed Point is in play, what happens to the revealed card?" A similar question is being asked about Wrest the Mind without a valid target. Under normal circumstances, there's no problem as they'd just get straight to trash without going into play, similar to limited cards, but the flipping indestructible in play cards in combinations that can't be played directly is similar to the situation with Limited cards.

Now, I know you can't answer the question, just trying to make it as clear as possible what's actually being asked as you and Powerhound seem to be talking past each other a fair bit.

I think the ruling feels neat and tidy. It's basically saying "Oh, that was impossible, so it didn't happen." =)

Is the box going to fit sleeved cards?

If you have a sleeved limited card, you need to also put the sleeve inside the card whenever this situation occurs.

I, for one, am not opposed to the flipping back of Limited cards already in play when Fixed Point is in play. It is a solution that fits within the definition of indestructible as well as forbidding a second copy of the Limited card from entering play. While putting the second Limited card into the trash is what is done in a normal situation, Fixed Point is far from being a normal situation. Trying to put it in the trash indeed violates the indestructibility clause. While Guise's card says "Treat it as if it just entered play," it was already in play upon flipping, and so cannot be removed from play by any means.

If someone can come up with a second possible outcome that violates neither indestructibility nor duplicate Limiteds, then we can have discussion on a better outcome.

I do agree that I'm not sure how cards that state "Play this card next to..." should be treated. My guess is that, if there isn't a valid card to which that card can be played, the card again flips back over, since it is still indestructible in the Fixed Point scenario, and cannot be merely played without being next to something.

The point about it already being in play does kind of make sense. Kind of.

Granted, now that I think about it, Fixer's tools shouldn't stay in play by the argument for discarding Limiteds. Going back into one's hand isn't destroying a card, after all.

(Remember, always carry a copy of Fixed Point on your person so that your sleeves remain indestructible.)

Indesructible prevents cards from leaving play by any means.

I get that it just seems odd as there is no text or way to know outside this forum that you should know to flip the card face down again.  

I do apologize if I have come off as antagonistic in this thread as that was not my intent.   The ruling is just odd to me but I will leave it be at this point. 

Thanks, Powerhound.

Good discussion, all!

Will sleeved Ronway fit in the box?

Will I learn how to make models, find my top 20 favorite forumites, and make models of them before 2050?

Do Handelabrats have anything to do with Pike Industrial and the lab rats, and will hard-boiled dectective Guise investigate

So many questions to be answered, but at the Grave(s) risk of getting off track, it's a confusing solution, but it really depends on how you think of it, and this is the way to resolve it playing how Christopher plays it through

Why yes, Cursed Acolyte will fit in the box very well when sleeved.

On the tabletop, you are free to do whatever you think is best, and that can vary from person to person and group to group. It's a cooperative game so ruling differences don't really cause any sort of systemic problems as they might in a game with competition (and leagues, etc). In the video game we have to have it work consistently, so that's why we get clarifications from Christopher about things like this. We share them with the forums since many people like us to, but you're not obligated to use them on the tabletop.

Not sure if that is true. Last time I tried to go against the app, my phone turned on, opened the app, crawled across the table, and put the card where it was supposed to go. Although, I did find that to be a cool new feature.

So it DID work.... Thank you Pydro.

We're working with these guys to bring the ultimate Sentinels tabletop experience to life: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CiE32h55HI

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

To hijack this thread back:

I've done it and it was glorious. The team was Grandpa Legacy, Argent Adept, Captain Cosmic, Rook City Wraith, and Mr. Fixer against Ambuscade in the Time Cataclysm. All 4 styles and all 5 of his tools. Dual Crowbar Jackhandles is sick enough. Dual Crowbar Jackhandles enchanced by -2 damage reduction to everything, +3 extra damage plus "sucker punching" everything that drops to 2 was just insane.

My next goal, since I still have that game running, heal up Ambuscade to full and get both copies of Dual Crowbar, Hoist Chain, Pipe Wrench, and Greased Monkey Fist out. Of course, I'm gonna need to destroy all of Captain Cosmic's constructs. The game runs painfully slow with all those cards out.

On a side note: Mobile support and Season 2 are wonderful. But my God, can we get the game optimized for speed when there are tons of cards out. I actually like the Matriarch but won't play her on the video game. I feel like pulling my hair out everytime I have to choose a target.

Version 2.0 has performance improvements for the select target dialog.

Can I add a request for an "ALL" button for optional discards/destruction? Like if I want to use Self-Sabotage or Singularity or one of the Hakas, there should be an option to just wipe everything in one go instead of having to cycle through the Discard screen two dozen times.

That is on our list to consider. It's something to do carefully, because the situation is rare and the current user experience is mildly negative. A feature to discard/destroy all would improve the experience of that rare situation, but also create a new more negative experience when you use it by mistake (and that has the potential to happen much more often).

What if you made it an "All" card at the start of the list like the skip card at the end of the list?

I would set up discards like this: let the players drag the cards into the order they want (like we order the heroes in the set up screen), and then set a break point.  Then when they press "Go" discard all the cards up until the breakpoint, at which point they have the opportunity to discard more cards the same way, or to stop discarding.  You can put the breakpoint at the end of the line in order to discard all, but if the break point isn't set at all, a dialog box will pop up saying "Do you want to discard everything?" (Alternatively, you must set a breakpoint, but you can discard everything by setting the breakpoint at the end)

Actually, I would set up damage ordering the same way.  Drag the targets into the order you want, set a pause point (if you want), and then press Go.