Draw at the end of turn unintentional side effect

Thinking out loud here...

I really love how the draw is at the end of the turn, as well as Christopher's explanation of why he did it (to speed up the game). It is such a simple idea that more games should use it. In fact, Tam Vasel will only play Carcassonne where you draw the tile at the end of your turn for the same reason.

But...perhaps, once again thinking out loud, it also emphasizes the automated parts (i.e. the villain and environment), and the fiddliness that comes with it. While drawing at the end of your turn speeds up the game, it also changes, precentage-wise, how much time you are spending on the heroes' turns versues the automated turns. Sometimes, it feels like the heroes are going so much faster (because you have been thinking about it for an entire round), and it feels like most of the game is about fiddiliness and automated turns, as opposed to decisions by the players.

So while it does speed up gameplay, perhaps its efficiency has the unintentional effect of emphasizing the non-decision parts of the game.

If the normal draw was at the start of your turn I think that you'd have even more issues.  Allowing a draw at the end as you've stated gives you time to think about it and should allow you to focus on what the villain and environment are playing to resolve any issues that come up from it.  

Definately going to side with Powerhound on this one. Source a dozen or so games against Wager Master. 

I am not suggesting the change, but stating a consequence of the current version. Just to throw out some fake numbers (these numbers aren't meant to be real, just easy numbers to show what I am saying): Let's say in a 60 minute game you spend 30 minutes on automated turns and 30 minutes on decision-making turns. Then, as part of an efficiency mechanic, there is a way to speed up the decision-making turns without losing the acutal decisions. Now, it only takes 15 minutes to play those same exact decision-making turns.

So, with this new (and good idea), a game with take 30 minutes of automated turns, and 15 minutes of decision making turns. The game now takes 15 minutes less (Yay!), but as a consequence, where before 50% of the game was automated and 50% decision making, now, 66% is automated and 33% is decision-making.

I am not saying this is the reality, since there is some overlap, but I know it my games it feels that I am spending more time doing automated turns then decision-making turns, which, even if it is a wrong perception, it still "feels" that way. (Yes, I, also, recognozie that experience also makes the decision-making turns faster).

I don't know about you, but waiting for other people to make decisions is not my idea of a good time. In fact, it could be the worst. So I think that minutes where I'm making a decision are not equivalent to minutes where someone else is making a decision.

We can try arbitrarily assigning "fun points" to each type of minute. This assignment would be a personal decision of course, maybe you love watching other people stew.

For me, I'll go with:

• One minute making a decision = 2 fun points
• One minute waiting for someone else to make a decision = -2 fun points
• One minute reacting to villain & environment actions = 1 fun point  

The fraction of minutes that are your decisions vs other players depends on H. H=3 is 33% yours, H=4 is 25% yours, H=5 is 20% yours.

Let's try this 60 minute game with H=4.

• In the 30/30 version, I get: 7.5 * 2 + 22.5 * (-2) + 30 * 1 = 0 fun points. That's no fun, by definition!
• In the 15/30 version, I get: 3.75 * 2 + 11.25 * (-2) + 30 * 1 = 15 fun points. Whew, I'm having fun now. Thanks Christopher! =)

Note: I realize this is all arbitrary, and it actually should probably be a non-linear function. But it was a fun exercise. Woo, fun points!

I have to admit, that I found it really funny that with the numbers you use show that playing the video game, which has the significant effect of reducing the automated turns times actually reduces the fun you are having in the game.

In my model, since the video game reduces the ratio of time from automated turns to decision-making turns, it actually makes the game more fun.

But to each their own.

I do want to reiterate that I don't think it was a bad decision at all, or that it is more fun the other way. I just think that an unintentional consequence of that decision is that you spend more time on automated turns which aren't being reduced by this mechaninc. I think the pros far out way the cons, if there are any cons.

I don't think I would necessarily use the same fun point values for the video game. It's also a gross simplification, because some elements of running the villain logic are fun, and some are less so (hi Kaargra).

I do see your point, and it's still interesting =)

Bringing up a tangent.

I've seen, perhaps more because I don;t get to play a lot of card games with highly skilled gamers, that a lot of times after people have been staring at their hand and planning their moves, they end up throwing cards down almost as soon as you say "Your Turn". Then realizing they forgot to draw, and potentially causing a bit of a mess.

I see that less with Sentinels, because you draw at the end, so our natural inclinations of playing cards as soon as possible play nicer with this set-up. I still get people forgetting to draw, mostly because their turn is over so they move on to the next person, then remeber to draw, but it is less disruptive to the flow that way.

More towards the discussion, I don't know if drawing at the beginning would make it feel any different. Unless the card you draw signifigantly changes your hand you've still got a plan you came up with off turn and will probably stick with it. So the overall distribution will stay relatively the same. After all, O-X and the Sentinels can draw at the start of their turns occassionally and it doesn't seem to make a large difference. Meanwhile, the automated turns are always static, and frankly, there are more things that activate on the villain field than almost any other section of the play area about 85% of the time (Exceptions being AA and O-X generally) so it will always have a big emphasis simply because it is sooo big.

Another tangent -- I very often forget that "Draw A Card" comes before "End of Turn".  Very relevant for End Of Turn actions that require card play or discard, but not intuitive when you get into the mindset that card draw is at the end of your turn.

I have found that when games use something "abnormal" it often takes awhile to get the hang of it. For example, not automatically looking at your drawn card in Hanabi, or not rearranging your cards in Bonanza.

To the original post, Pydro, I think you’re underestimating the decision content of the more automated turns. The villain and environment turns can be quite decision-rich, even if only to break numerical ties. Sometimes the game comes down to those items just as much as it does to a card play.

Agreed. I feel that I am in the minority in enjoying other turns than my own as much or my than my own turn. I like seeing what's happening and thinking about how to address the current needs.

I rarely have "off turns" because the large majority of my games are solo play. It's better now that I have the app, but still true