The All New and All Different(ly dressed) Freedom Five!

I admit that the visuals to the new promos for the team-theamed Freedom Five might take a little bit to get used to for most players, but here are my opinions on them:

Legacy: The 'safest'(Not too different from his normal costume, but not to simular either.) of the updates, I think the changes to his look are pretty good. It gives his 'Golden Age' style an update without straying too far from the original design, still uses his three primary colors, but putting in some new lines and a different style of cape. Looks good on him.

Bunker: Where's his feets? :O Joking aside, the suit looks neat, slimmer than almost every version of Bunker we've seen so far, but I'm still not used to that style of foot/boots that the suit has. Getting my opinion out of the way, it makes sense that the power-armor user should have the most promos out of anyone since he has the need to update and upgrade his suit to keep up with new threats and dangers, but I'm an Iron Man fan, so whatever.

Tachyon: She looks rather plain to me(compared to the others who have drasticly different looks) but at the very least she has all her trademark costume bits like her side-circles and goggles. And looking at her original costume it wasn't too outlandish to begin with, so I think I just need to get used to this one.

The Wraith: I'll happily admit that the Wraith's new costume is probably my favorite out of the bunch(Especially the mask). Not as stealthy as I'm sure Maia prefers, but this is supposet to be her 'tricked-out and in public' suit, so I suppose the stealth concept goes out the window. I'm almost positive that those are 'thigh windows' and not white patches. Which in all honesty I think are not really a problem. I doubt Maia minds showing off a relativly modest part of the human body(We ARE talking about a character whose base costume in comparison[though admitedly not in the same spot] shows more skin than this one).

Absolute Zero: ...Okay, total honesty. I really hate to say it, but AZ's new suit is my least favorite of the bunch. Don't get me wrong, I can dig most of the design like the new glowing inlays and the streamlined-at-parts-but-bulkier-at-others new shapes, but the two big problems I have with it are the main color(I get blue is relatable to ice, but this shade is a bit too muted to have AZ really 'pop' in his new suit) and his face plate's new shape(Does he even have a full range of vision with that?). I get that the glowing triangle is his symbol, but really, does it need to be on his face? Maybe Adam put it there so this suit doesn't look too much like AZ's Tactics suit? Even so, I don't think it was a wise desicion.

You agre with me? Think I'm all wrong? What are your opinions of the official uniforms for the new Freedom Five Promos?

Edit: Tweaked the name of the thread.

I think the costumes are meant to represent red, white, and blue for the most part which is why we get the colors that you see.   I'm a fan of them overall but I think Adam has some polishing to do on them.

Yeah, I noticed the color motif as well.

It's a good choice for the team, and I will admit after sleeping on it the color for AZ isn't TERRIBLE. I just hope that Adam uses something more...solid(?) of a color. (Bluh, sorry. Still early morning for me, can't word-think right now.) Something more vibrant.

Legacy: I like his design overall  I think his face is a little rough though  

Bunker: I'm not thrilled about another bunker variant. on the other hand, if it provides a new way to play him it might be ok  the new design is interesting  

Tachyon : good overall I like the blue color, could be a little more to it but otherwise good  

Wraith: I'm fairly certain the holes near her hips are part of the fabric. You can see the wrinkle line crossing over between the red to the grey. Also the chest and neck color is slightly different than arms and hips. 

AZ: I'm liking this look. It might not be flashy, but it's still neat!

Ra: I really like the fire on this version. Really well done. 

Omnitron-U: the concept of this one I really like. It gives omni a new side, and a new look rather than simply another upgrade with another number. 

Parse Fugue State: I like this costume for Parse, but I'm also a huge fan of the original look for Parse. This look brings out her intelligence, getting rid of her bow and just throwing arrows? Awesome!

Stuntman: I like the casual look heroes. And it works well for this guy too. The bandaid could be a scar instead, but it works I spose. 

SkyScraper: I like the idea of her shrinking smaller and growing larger than before. The arts for the three sizes are great. The blood cell one is probably my favorite of the three. 

Captain Cosmic: I was t expecting this twist in his story. I like the half and half look and the two different energies together looks great! 

Visionary: this look for visionary is a little stronger in the girly colors department. But the colors look great. 

Luminary: I like this look for Blade. Did he lose weight? XD I really like the vibrant colors. 

(More later) 

My issue with the costumes is mostly with Wraith and the thigh cut-outs (and, to a lesser extent, her clevage).

To preface this: I believe a woman should be free to wear what she wants and her choice of clothes should be first, and foremost, about what she enjoys, her tastes, and what she feels empowers her.

BUT...

Superhero comics have a long, LONG history of showing female flesh through revealing costumes as a way to excite and titalate the male audience. Such displays have almost always been about appealing to horny guys and the female gaze and not about sensible crime fighting or tactical choices.

So, to be blunt, I'm disapointed in Adam and Christopher over this design. Sentinels of the Multiverse has always been a forward thinking and inclusive game. LGBTQ folk, people of color, those on the autism spectrum, and women have all been well represented in the various expansions. In Marvel and DC, women rarely get to be the smartest person in the room and, when they are, they are almost always the bad guy. In Sentinels, the world's smartest person is both a woman and a lesbian. The world's greatest detective (and an engineering genius in her own right) is a woman. 

Sure, Wraith wants to look good. That's awesome. She, like every individual, has a right to enjoy how they look and control how others perceive them. But why would an engineering genius with no powers go with LESS clothing instead of more? Why isn't she wearing some really awesome but light-weight battle armor? Why would she leave her thighs, and thus her femoral arteries, open to attack? I imagine she knows exactly how quickly she can bleed out if she takes a nick across the big target those arteries represent.

I don't know. I don't begrudge Adam And Christopher's right to make their characters look however they like. But I'd love to be able to show this card to my daughter and say, "Isn't what she's wearing awesome? She's wearing it not because it looks sexy and shows off her thighs, but because it looks good AND protects her in combat."

I think Wraith can be gorgeous and smart. This costume just says gorgeous to me.

After The Visionary's amazingly silly get-up, I am not surprised by Wraith's thigh windows, but that doesn't make me like them.

And I still think that Bunker stole Baron Blade's old suit of armor.

I am 99% sure that those are white patches, not cutouts. To me the color is very clearly not a flesh tone.

I don’t like Wraith’s new suit, because the mask looks too much like Spite’s. I don’t think she’d want to invite the comparison.

I'm surprised they don't look like more of a team, since I thought that was the point of their five-years-later promos.  Wraith's and Bunker's looks don't really match the others, IMO.  Heck, to really sell the Team concept, all five pix could actually be parts of a single overall pic that went together when you laid the cards out next to each other.  That'd be cool.

Maybe that's for the incapacitated side?

Uh, "thigh windows?" I keep my thighs in a very different place. These are "hip & pelvic windows," if anything, which is a strange place for "windows" (is that, like, an actual fashion term?)

Although I'm also pretty sure those are supposed to be fabric, like the sleeves. They are not her skin tone. Either way, as many have noted (and the window-patch-related confusion supports), this seems to be a bad/awkward design. Sort of a Spite-ified and garbled version of the Rook City costume, with fist-tazers.

I'm also hoping, for all of the F5 variants, that these are just early concept sketches. They do seem rushed, and not up to the standards of his previous artwork. Look at the snow pile between Ab Zero's legs...

Agreed. Honestly, I always felt that their original outfits sold the Freedom Five as a team, in the Justice League/Avengers style of "different backgrounds, but working together for a common goal".  The part that feels weirdest to me is that in five years (Tactics era), they go back to an updated variant of their original outfits.

Legacy's makes the most sense to me; Bunker I assume is still hurting from losing his armor from Termi-Nation and needed something in a pinch (as others have said, it looks like a repurposed Baron Blade armor). Tachyon's is hardest to update, since her base outfit is so simple, so a color change makes sense if it needs to be done (homage to Sonic?). Absolute Zero looks cool, but the triangle visor is jarring. I can probably get used to it with time. Wraith is…interesting, and that's all I'm gonna say on that subject.

I can't wait to hear the comments about the new Fanatic Promo. 

I understand the concern, but I really disagree that Adam drew the the wraith in a way that objectifies women and I know that was not his intent. He has never drawn her as anything, but a strong female character. Look at Ra. Was he drawn with the intention of tantalizing the female game players? Most of the characters are portrayed was being in Good shape and wearing tight clothes. I think the most important thing is intent. Did Adam intend to draw something that young boys will drool over? I think the answer is clearly no. Those may or may not be holes or fabric. To me it is all about intent. I think his goal was to draw something fashion forward that the wraith would find stylish. 

We've got to keep in mind that while we're hoping every detail is perfect, these are just a few of the >100 character cards that Adam has to draw before July/August. And we've been begging to see more of them faster. So we will probably see some first drafts and revisions of them over time. There's a lot to be done for one artist.

I just realized I can't tell what direction AZ is looking in his promo pic.  He could be looking directly at me, which would mean the white triangle is basically his face.  But he could also be looking to the side in which case the triangle is more like Spider-man's eye coverings when they're drawn super huge by some artists.  It's like an optical illusion - I can make myself see it both ways equally well.

Those pictures aren't done.  Wraith's coloring needs to be fixed so what is skin and what is fabric is more obvious.  (if you block out the purple cape and letters beneath you can tell the patches and her arm are slightly different coloring, she doesn't have sleeves)

This is a topic worth being sensative about, but all appearances are that this is a result of being a rough draft, and not a really horrible costume design.

The Ra thing is a false equivalency argument in that powerful, well muscled, shirtless men aren't drawn in comics to satisfy female gaze but to be a male power fantasy. Exceptions are characters like Nightwing and Namor who are, these days at least, drawn to satisfy the female (and gay/bisexual male) gaze. At least two characters (Midnighter and Batgirl) have recognized Dick Grayson based on his butt alone. Most muscle men in comics aren't made for women.

I don't think Chris and Adam did it on purpose and if the sleeves and hip windows are cloth, that's cool. But intention isn't the entirety of the law here, either. Like I said, there's a history of objectification in comics and this often happens when they are given new costumed. I'm thinking Sue Richards/the Invisible Woman when she was given a cut-out FF boob window or Huntress when she got her belly window. All for no real reason other than an artist thought it looked sexy.

[quote="waedens"]

I can't wait to hear the comments about the new Fanatic Promo. I understand the concern, but I really disagree that Adam drew the the wraith in a way that objectifies women and I know that was not his intent. He has never drawn her as anything, but a strong female character. Look at Ra. Was he drawn with the intention of tantalizing the female game players? Most of the characters are portrayed was being in Good shape and wearing tight clothes. I think the most important thing is intent. Did Adam intend to draw something that young boys will drool over? I think the answer is clearly no. Those may or may not be holes or fabric. To me it is all about intent. I think his goal was to draw something fashion forward that the wraith would find stylish. 

[/quote]

Objectification and sexualization are different things. The female characters in this game are definitely more sexualized than the male characters (who are generally idealized, not sexualized, from a male perspective), almost all with large (and occasionally magically growing) breasts, although the artwork in SotM is generally not gratuitous or offensive and avoids plain objectification of its characters—much better than most comic artwork—and I appreciate it for that reason.

I don't know if "windows" are gratuitous sexualization that suggests objectification (like mindphyre), but it's still sexualization, and worth questioning.

Mainly though, I take issue with the idea that her costume is actually "fashion forward" or "stylish." Just looks awkward.

The difference between sexualization and sexual objectification is this: Objectification is treating a woman as an object, and often treated as an sexualized object. Sexualization is treating a woman as if she exists to titillate.

That is, the difference ain't that big.

[quote="Belle Sorciere"]

Sexualization is treating a woman as if she exists to titillate.

[/quote]

Not necessarily. If a character has enough agency and authenticity, her sexuality could be an aspect of her personailty, and something she has (implied) control over, and not a (male-controlled) feature intended for objectification. Sexuality and sexualization are, in theory, fine.

In practice though, female characters are almost always sexualized (in often dumb ways) and male characters almost never, and I would question whether sexualization is ever really appropriate in a context like this. My point was: whether objectification was intended or experienced, it's still legitimate to question whether or not a character is too sexualized.

But yeah, the difference ain't huge.

Well, I tend to think that characters have no agency because they are fictional creations that do not exist in the real world. They do things because their creators decide to have them do things. Authenticity is another story - that is, does a character feel like they're exercizing agency?

I realize we're not disagreeing a lot though.

> Mainly though, I take issue with the idea that her costume is actually "fashion forward" or "stylish." Just looks awkward.

Obviously you just don't know fashion.


Yeah, I should have said an implied agency—which is exactly what I think Christopher was trying to establish in the story description, by having the costume change be explicitly The Wraith's choice, one who is fashionable and wants to "look good" while fighting crime.

But that seems pretty weak authenticity-wise, especially when you see how the costume actually looks.

I was pretty excited about this update.

I agree with what's been said about legacy. Moderate and conservative compared to the others, but just enough change to show growth. Reminds me of Robert Kirkmans style changes in the character Invincible. Shows a little more maturity or something.

I actually really thought Bunkers suit was pretty cool. I can see the comment about being reminiscent of Baron Blade, but seeing how Baron Blade is now Luminary, maybe that doesn't matter. Bunker has always kind of had a retro feel to him, and this suit is more modernized to me. Kind of more a Baymax combat style. I don't know, he just looks tougher. 

As for the rest, tachyon is plane, wraith is interesting, to say the least, with her mask so much like spite. Maybe they did this because they've explored too many other face mask options with her, and they thought the full mask would be newish? And absolute zeros suit is fine, except I really don't like the shape of his head/face plate. And as said before, he's too light looking. AZ has always been kind of the more cynical/dark personality, and his suit kind of emulated that. Personally, I like his original the best.

Actually, that's my work outfit.

While I don't doubt that you're right, I am unsure how (without using Word of God) to identify the difference between male heroes drawn attractively as power fantasies and male heroes drawn attractively as sex objects.

And that, actually, is I think the problem (or at least part of it).  Male sexuality is frequently tied to their power - the more powerful they are, the more attractive they are.  Meanwhile, female sexuality is not tied to power - and is frequently tied to weakness.  (They can derive power from their sexuality, but that's not the same thing, and is a different problem).  So the sexuality of female heroes (and villains) is intrinsically in conflict with their power, while male heroes have their sexuality in sync with their power.

I suspect David Willis of Shortpacked/Dumbing of Age put it best when it came to false equivalence.

http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/

There is an amazing comic about this that draws a sexualized version of Batman (as opposed to a power fantasy version). I’m too nervous to try and Google for that at work, though…

Edit: fortuitously coincidental ninja! Thanks Jgray.

Ok after seeing some of the comments about this , I had to jump in to have my say on the pros and cons on this thread .

Pros
 

I liked how this topic was about the title and about art . I think opinons are cool and everyone can have one but as an artist my self think peopl are missing something here . Opinions of the artist over see yours by a a mile as in to say if the artist likes their art they dont have to change it to make you happy . Most opinions dont really matter so yeah saying your 2 cent sis all good and dandy by most of the time it does nothing . Art is a subjective topic but if you are not an artist your self try and see thing from the artisrpoint of view . Most times some peole think they can do a better job and if that is the case put up or shut up , it's that simple . To me one of most over used / generic excuses it most say "well I am not this so yeah not my problem " this is a proble that peole must stop , like dont have that jnd of mind est you are better then the person you are voicing your opinion to . Try and be more respectful and humble if you dont mind , to see things from all the angles and just yours .

Cons
 

This topic was going well until someone had to go off topic for no reason , like why did you bring up smething has nothing to do with the main topic at hand . I of course am talking about female being represneted in a good way , why does thi this topic have to be everywhere . I dont know about other people but I for one I am getting tired of this topic since it's everywhere where it should not be . Why does this topic have to shoved in peoples faces like it's the most imporant topic ever . The reality is it's not , there are more important things in the world then women being portrated to be strong / smart , ect . I get this topic is an important one but that is no excuse to have it brought up where it's not needed . I am just tired of hearing it and seeing it almost every where which is bad since the message becomes less impactful / meaningful if talked about constantly . 

Summary

I hope some people beofre replying to back to me at least see /understand my point and where I am coming from casue really I ave not got the time to defend my delf just because you dont like what I said . I mean no dis respect to women / female characters but it had to said since there  is already a thread on here that tlaks about the issue and bringing up here is not cool .

SMXLR8, some points:

• You are allowed to critique art even if you are not an artist
• Representation of women in media is not off-topic when discussing the representation of a particular woman in a particular medium
• Trying to shut people down for having a legitimate criticism is not cool

Actually it is not a false equivalence. I am talking about intent. I don't disagree that in comics women have been or continue to be "sexualized" or "sexually objectified". I am talking about Adam's intent. My point is that Adam equally did not intend to draw either Ra or The Wraith as sexual objects. I apologize if I did not use the current correct term for Objectification of women in a sexual way. The way we talk about these things changes every couple of years and I haven't kept up apparently. 

I just think that having two tan/white spots on the sides of Wraith's costume look weird, whether they are skin or fabric.

@SMXLR8: "this topic" is everywhere because it is very important to more than half the population, especially when it concerns the things they love. No one is attacking you, your own opinions, or this game. People just care about different stuff. Most importantly, pretty much everyone has been "humble and respectful" in all of their posts so far, so I'm confused by your hostility.

@waedens: my goal wasn't to correct your usage of "objectification," but to express how I think good intention doesn't cancel out effect, or delegitimize another person's feeling about that effect—therefore it's worth discussion.

Those windows weird tho.

When I look at the color scheme the costume seems to be an amalgam of regular and rook city that focuses mire heavily on rook city. Maybe the white is a supposed to be a call back to her wrappings from her base card?

@Voob Gooblin - I agree that people's perspectives are all valid and as they say, "good intentions line the path to Hell." 

My perspective is that the costume is totally fine and in no way sexual. Is it the end all be all of art? No, but I don't think that Adam would argue that it is. It is a comic style drawing meant as nothing else. I wouldn't have even have looked at it twice if people weren't making such a big deal about it. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. 

PS - Don't smoke. It's bad for you. 

Edit for bad grammar. 

That's the thing though, the patches do not look white to me, they look like the same color as her skin. To me, it look like either she has holes cut into the side of her costume, or the coloring makes it look like she has holes cut into the side of her costume. In both cases, I don't think it looks very nice. In the "Guesses at the 6 Cards" thread, Ironic made a mockup of Wraith's costume without the holes, and I think it looks better.

Well, that answers that question.

Now I really want to see a superhero comic where all the men are over-sexualized, and all the women are female power fantasies.

As to criticising art, no artist should be immune to being called out if they create something problematic. Being able to draw shouldn't make you magically absolved of all responsibility.

I'm all for freedom of creativity, but I'm also for freedom of criticism.

And let's be blunt here: Adam is making a product. The intent is to sell this product to customers. We, as his intended customers, are perfectly entitled to express our opinions of his product whether they are positive or negative. Feedback is valuable enough to companies that they pay money to focus groups to find out if they need to make changes - by criticising, we're actually giving something to the company.

Imagine you bought a beautiful wedding cake from a local baker, and when you cut into it you realised that they'd used mud instead of frosting. Would you be angry and complain that your cake was inedible, or would you say, "Oh well, the baker obviously likes it like this, let's just eat the cake and convince ourselves that mud isn't so bad because none of us can bake wedding cakes."

As for bringing up the topic of poor female representation (or poor representation of any group that isn't the "default" straight white cis male), I'll stop calling it out when it stops happening.

Check out the Hawkeye Initiative.

http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/

Which is basically, "Let's draw Hawkeye in every sextastic pose we see women in comics in!".

And at the risk of repeating myself from the other thread, has no one else realised that Wrath's hip holes mean she can't be wearing underwear?

I mean I'm fine with her going commando, but it's not an appropriate look for going to work to save the world, and not really very practical.

That is the funniest thing I have seen in a while, some of those are pure gold.

LOL. I am always telling people that criticism is a gift. I am also saying that there are ways to go about giving that gift. Some are better than others. Comparing someone's hard work to a cake made out of mud may not get the reaction from the person that you are looking for. Also have you seen these outfits? I am sure Half of these heroes are going commando!

I wasn't saying Adam was giving us mud cake, just making a silly example of why "you can't do that thing, so you're not allowed to complain" is a totally unreasonable stance to take.

And it's really very tiresome to get mud cake after mud cake your whole life while another group get delicious chocolate, and then be told to stop complaining that your dessert isn't as tasty as it could be.

Wraith's the only one where it's both impossible for her to be wearing underwear, and very obvious that she isn't.

Brava!

There are underwears she could be wearing. Their existance (as well as their design) is utterly absurd and I don’t feel comfortable linking them in this site. Also I’m pretty sure that isn’t skin.

That reminds me of Jim Hines' attempts to pose as a woman on a fantasy cover, and his later comparison to male posing.

Why is this topic everywhere? Because it applies to over half of the world's population, and it should be shoved into people's faces until we do something about the problem. I could write an enormous wall of text on this, but I'd just end up repeating everything Silverleaf already said.

When you've got a problem that's been around for decades that many people choose to ignore, you don't just say "we'll get around to it soon". You take care of the problem immediately wherever it pops up.

Well this thread derailed lol

>

 What are your opinions of the official uniforms for the new Freedom Five Promos?

Seems like we're still on track to me. This is what we're here to discuss.

I think I could literally look at pictures like these and the Hawkeye ones all day. There's a term for swapping two things to show how absurd one or both are, but I can't remember what it's called. Anywho, this is that.

That may very well be the best "reasonable request for OblivAeon" of them all.

Seconded. Seriously Seconded.

yeah, I really like this idea. And hope Adam sees it. 

Welcome to the GtG forums.

This is how we roll.

I totally realized this. Showed it to a friend and ze realized it immediately.

Well, we will get alternates…

What I find really funny is that everybody seems to have a fixation on the "circles" that may be or not flesh revealing, not her décolleté ( neckline ?) - not expected from a combat suit. But Maïa seems to prefer wearing clothes that do not obfuscate her feminity. I find young Legacy's mini-skirt more problematic, I wouldn't wear one if I was a flying lady.

I am not sure I should give my opinion here. I hope Legacy will Lead From the Front for me.

I cringe everytime I hear people, good-meaning or not, say that an outfit is "appropriate" or not for a woman. Real or fictional. It looks too much like what I hear nearly everyday in our societies - and in societies less modern than ours. Only about women, by the way.

If she was shown in a sexy enticing pose like the ones the Hawkeye Intiative points at, I'd agree with you all. Same if she was in any way pictured as a weak-damsell-ready-to-fulfil-your-domination-wish. I can't bear these kind of representation in non-erotic works. But she is not. So, if she wears something a little sexy, I think that is because Adam and Christopher decided she liked to wear this kind of clothes and felt confortable with them. Believe it or not, the women in my entourage like Wraith's outfits a lot. They would not wear them in everyday life, but don't find them shocking. You should see my wife's collection of pin-ups and Frazetta paintings... From both of us, she is the one with sexy girls in enticing poses as her desktop. But maybe it's because we are from another society.

If a man dared to walk the streets with Haka or Mainstay's outfits - or even Guise's too-fit body suit - there would be lot of shocked whispers. But these rise no eyebrow in comics, while showing skin is NOT - for a fictional woman. To me, it feels like too many of us expect more "decency" from women than men in pictures.

I don't want to suggest that any of you is a "biggot" or anything like that. And I don't say that a better representation of women is not worth fighting for. But in places where said representation is bad, like advertisement, too many movies or music videos, main-line comics, and so on.

But in Sentinels ? It feels like nitpicking. We have a great list of remarkable heroins and vilainess, all with interesting complex personalities, all with a lot of power. Some wear more or less sexy outfits. Just like women do in real life. Even Visonary and Wraith's outfits are not far from what women wear at the gym to work out.

Now I'll put my chainmail malekini and wait for the backlash.

Critiquing the way a fictional nonexistent imaginary woman is presented by the artist is not the same as criticizing women for showing skin. Also, "There are women in the real world who dress that way" is also not a valid critique of the critique because again this is a fictional nonexistent imaginary woman who is being presented the way she is by the artist. Wraith can't have agency, and it's not reasonable to react as if her agency is being criticized. There's no agency there, just as there is no woman being critiqued here. Just a picture of an imaginary person and how that person is presented.

Beacon's miniskirt isn't a miniskirt.

Its a skort.

Also, the thing about the cleavage is that showing cleavage by itself isn't necessarily objectifying, but showing the entirety of one's hips to the point that you can tell that someone is going commando is not even in the same category.

Now I do think it's possible that Adam doesn't intend for Wraith's hips and arms to be interpreted as skin, but rather as a different color of cloth over those areas. I don't really know. I do know what it looks like and what it looks like is questionable.

To me, I've always pointed out to my peers how progressive Sentinels is in so many ways, as we have representations of LGBT characters and non-sexually objectified female characters. And I'm not saying that Wraith was intended to be objectified here, but the outfit just doesn't seem right for a character like Wraith. What purpose would omitting a part of a costume there serve? There's nothing tactical about hip holes--the only thing it will serve to do is make her colder when she is out fighting at night, like she normally is. They're just so strangely placed and don't seem to contribute anything except showing that she is not wearing underwear. 

Maybe they weren't intended to be objectifying, but they still contribute to the trope of female comic characters having parts of their body exposed for no practical reason, and that's an issue. If we criticize that kind of presentation elsewhere, shouldn't we feel obligated to criticize it here, on a forum specifically designated for us to discuss our enjoyment of a particular thing? Anyone who took the time to sign up for an account here obviously enjoys Sentinels very much, so this is exactly the place we should bring very specific discussions about individual details, and bring up criticisms and improvements we'd like to see in this thing we love.

Sure, just like that one vegan friend who always launches into a sermon whenever he catches someone eating a burger.

They did that for the first iteration of the Sentinels, and I always thought it looked really cool. 

I don't think I catch your meaning. Can you explain the analogy you're making? Sorry.

He's saying that the critique here is extremely obnoxious and invasive.

Or at least, that's how I see a lot of people react to Vegan proselytizing.

My point is that to that vegan, not eating meat is the most important thing to them and they'll take every opportunity to stridently remind people of their strongly held belief.  But even though that guy's friends probably agree with them, they may get tired of the sermon the thousandth time.

Not that this is the thousandth time we've had the same discussion about perceived objectivization, sexualization, or inclusiveness on this forum.  I'm just talking about vegans... ;)

But this isn't the same discussion. This discussion is about a specific piece of art released yesterday. It no doubt resembles those other discussions, but it is reasonable to discuss it.

I didn't say it wasn't reasonable to discuss it.  I'm sure it feels very necessary to discuss it thoroughly.

Nah, it was just a strong implication given the example. But maybe I've been around more obnoxious vegans than you have.

Well, yeah, it feels necessary every time. Wouldn't it be weird if we raised an issue with something, then saw it happen again, and we just said "Oh, well, saying something last time didn't work, might as well give up"?

It's more like half the world is vegan, and keep getting told not to make a fuss and suck it up when servers in restaurants keep bringing them burgers when they ask for tofu.

Sure, and the next time someone finds something they think may be too objectivizing/sexualizing/non-inclusive, that will feel like it needs to be exhaustively discussed as well.  Just know that your friends here all agree.  Eating meat is bad.

I don't see why discussing it is a problem.

Greatly appreciate the conversation and there have been some great comments / contributions! At this point, it seems like most folks have hit their points on Wraith's new outfit and we're now cycling back and discussing the discussion, which can tend to get dangerous. Not saying to stop -- just want to make sure everyone keeps their heads and respects everyone else's views.

Thanks for being such a great community, folks!

If you look at Rook City Wraith you see her skin tone in similar lighting.

I think this image is a problem of her skin tone being too pale in the picture.

If they are cutout then that really is just an incredibly horrible outfit, but I don't think that is the case, it just looks like it because the picture isn't finished and the coloring is poor.

Thanks for your sage advice @Rabit. I think we will all just have to agree to disagree on wether a line was crossed or not by Adam's art. In many ways that is what art is about, pushing boundries and creating thought provoking discussions that test your views of the world. 

The only problem would be if deploying the same indignation everytime the same set of wires are tripped ended up causing friends who otherwise agree to become numb to the argument.  I know that's not an interesting opinion when it feels like there's a war that needs winning, so I'll just leave my vegan analogy here and smokebomb out.  cya.

Nah, art is about creating content that people will hopefully enjoy or at least appreciate. It doesn't have to push boundaries, and not every boundary should necessarily be pushed.

Tl;dr: Everything looks pretty cool despite how rushed Adam was to draw them. There are nitpicks to be made here and there, but aren't there always?

Legacy: I really like how this costume is designed. It keeps everything very true to the original design while changing just enough that it feels fresh. It also looks cool. Which is important. (The way he's holding his left hand looks really uncomfortable, though. Does superhuman durability exclude one from hand cramps?)

Bunker: Bunker also looks pretty dang cool, despite his odd-looking legs. It's good to see that the Termi-Nation suit wasn't the final incarnation of Bunker in the card game, because that suit seemed somewhat unwieldly to take into combat with anybody but a ferrokinetic, even considering the general unwieldliness of Bunker suits (Oh no, it's Bunker! Good thing he can't fit through the double doors of the bank we're robbing.). It also seems somewhat thematic that he should have a lot of promos considering just how many Bunker suits we've seen.

Tachyon: The Tachyon promo is probably my least favorite, but that's not saying much because she still looks awesome. That said, is she not wearing shoes? I can believe in high-tech not-destroyed-despite-being-on-feet-travelling-at-mach-5 sneakers, but those boots seem like they would be super uncomfortable to run in without super speed. (Also, what is she running next to? It looks like a helicopter, but the pilot would have to be bad at his job, because the copter is literally skidding along the side of a building.)

The Wraith: My personal favorite. It looks wonderful and it's recognizable as the Wraith, yet it's something new and interesting. However, because I love it, I must nitpick it. That's how love works. *Clears throat*. As a general thing, heroes with secret identities should cover their hair somehow. I'm surprised The Wraith's identity lasted a week when a simple DNA test on any hair she lost would show that Maia Montgomery was coincidentally on mars while the FV was fighting a giant robot there... That utility belt has about the same utility as a regular belt. It has literally no visible places in which to carry things on it. And if all of the pouches are on the back of the belt, Wraith's cape is going to get in the way absolutely every time she wants to get something out of it... Etcetera, etcetera. It looks awesome. Good work Adam! (It's interesting to hear that Wraith changes her outfit and kit often, when she's one of the more consistently portrayed heroes. RC Wraith makes an out of character card appearance all of once.)

Absolute Zero: I suppose I'm probably just glad that a hero who is effective because of how modular his suit is has a suit that looks modular, but I like FV AZ. I don't love the helmet, but it works with what is trying to be acomplished. (As for why the Tactics suit is different, I'm pretty sure OblivAeon is going to destroy AZ's stuff. Absolutely every villain seems to love breaking AZ's stuff.) (That fence behind AZ is the least effective fence ever.) (I almost opened this with, "I'm a little on the fence about this art." Then I realized that wasn't funny without some form of context.) (Then I realized that just wasn't funny.)

Ra: Ra shaved, made a necklace out of a broken magical artifact, started wearing a really cool hat, and managed to find shoulderpads made of gold. I'm not even mad. That's incredible. His shoulders must be made of sterner stuff than mine.

[quote="Spiff"]

Sure, and the next time someone finds something they think may be too objectivizing/sexualizing/non-inclusive, that will feel like it needs to be exhaustively discussed as well.  Just know that your friends here all agree.  Eating meat is bad.

[/quote]

Well, everything in this forum is discussed "exhaustively." There are entire threads devoted to discussing single phrases of text in the game, and 172 posts of people guessing what future cards might be (these also often get heated). And yes, this is important to many people, and no, the friends here don't all agree, which is why there is a discussion about it, which is good.

As long as people are civil, why such eagerness to shut down the conversation? Participation is not mandatory.

Edit: Also, the fact that something as silly as uncomfirmed "hip windows" on a single character can spark a genuine conversation about female representation, it's just a sign that this game and its artwork are held to a relatively high standard (for good reason), and that makes me happy. I think it's unfair and probably disingenuous to say that this is just a case of "wires being tripped," and an overreaction. You could make that argument for almost every arcane rules thread here, and I love those threads.

And the important question, of course, is really, How did Ra grow his nipple back?

With fire probably.

> Also, the fact that something as silly as uncomfirmed "hip windows" on a single character can spark a genuine conversation about female representation, it's just a sign that this game and its artwork are held to a relatively high standard (for good reason), and that makes me happy. I think it's unfair and probably disingenuous to say that this is just a case of "wires being tripped," and an overreaction. You could make that argument for almost every arcane rules thread here, and I love those threads.

I agree with this. Seeing a thread where people are passionate about gender representation in SotM is really cool. It shows me that this is more than a card game with pretty pictures -- it has value to people, and it encourages constructive thoughts. That's leaps and bounds beyond what I imagined when I picked this up 4 years ago.

> And the important question, of course, is really, How did Ra grow his nipple back?

It probably involved all the hair he cut off. Those two things are transferrable.

1.) I’m thinking the “hip-holes” might be a product of rushing to get the update out and they might be more utility type pouches that I expect from the Wraith

2.) Her secret identity won’t be big deal for too much longer timeline wise since she and the rest of the Freedom Five go public pre -tactics.

Am I the only one who's having a hard time connecting "hip windows" and "sexy"?  Please note that I am not, by any means, saying that we shouldn't have a conversation about sexualization/objectification of women in comics/media (and by extension this game), but it seems to me that if you purposefully wanted to make the Wraith look sexy by showing some skin, you'd choose something other than the hip-bone area.

As far as the question about underwear, Wraith probably isn't wearing any in that outfit anyway.  But that has nothing to do with the hip windows, and she's most likely not alone in that most of the heroes (male included) who wear tights probably aren't either.  While I'm not an expert, many forms of athletic tights are meant to be worn directly against the skin since that assists in wicking away moisture and therefore keeping you cool or warm as the case may need to be.  It gets a little more complicated when you get into multiple layers, and then when we get to superhero tights/armour probably even more so, but I'd imagine that a similar design principle is at play and the costumes are designed accordingly.  (After all, no one wants to be worried about uncomfortable chaffing while battling supervillians in another dimension.)

1.) So why wear the belt? But I digress. Keeping throwing knives and razor blades in your pockets seems dangerous.

2.) True. But she kept up the charade for something like 750 books in the Freedom Five comic alone. I think its fitting that one of her major costs in the RPG is "somebody realizes who you are" because she doesn't seem to be working very hard to hide it. =P

Well this is the genre where a guy got away with protecting his secret identity by wearing glasses, so per genre conventions, this is not far-fetched at all.

This is also true. At least Maia seems to have a tough time of it, with Setback punching walls on top of her and all that.

My reaction when I saw FV Wraith WITH hip-holes in the KS update:

"Ooo, that's cool. and she's got more built-in tech and such." Continues reading/scrolling.

Honestly, I don't give a hoot if they are holes or not, and if they are I think y'all that are going "sexualization" and "Objectification" (in this case)and such are being silly.

But what do I know, I'm just a dummy on the internet. :P

It's been said, but the biggest reason it doesn't work for me for it to be hip Windows is that it just isn't tactful in any way to wear that in combat. I think it's more likely to be fabric. Looking forward to asking Adam on Friday. XD 

I am on board with Wraith new Costume, The mask reminds me too much of spite but I am over it.And i love those shock kunkles and the side windows.

 As much as she is a techonology person she is also a martial artist. She has a Batman motiff so I doubt she will rearly use a power armor. Look at her arms and calves, I'll rock that outfit if I looked like that and hit the gym everyday. For me they are the heroes i like the most, people who use there own power to overcome problems.  I mean Woot for team HUman. Fixer, Expat(?), Wraith, Chrono.

I would Complain about her increase Boob size but have you seen Xtreme AA Chest, My good what being a hero does to your body.

I also tought Maia was Hispanic, and should/had have a slightly darker skin. Granted I am hispanic and I am as White as the come (good old Spaniard Conolinal Blood).

SilverLeaf and Belle I tip my hat to you gals. I do hope we can get more Not so extreme looking, guy, girl or what ever tempest is,heroes like Parse in every Media. 

I view Maia’s mask as part of the story. She had to kill a monster, and as a result become a monster herself. Her mask is a symbol to herself that she crossed that line.

While I hail a team-set for the freedom five and I do find the costumes interesting, I am not fully seeing the transition to the costumes in tactics (design or color). AZ's head is confusing (could be design against villains), while Bunkers legs look weird (off-ratio?) and the first thing I thought was that his left leg was shorter. Secreetly hoping that these are draft versions of the art.

Wraith’s new look coolest of the lot, with or without white circles/hip windows.

AZ’s my least favourite, Tachyon a close second. Something feels off about the proportions, and I am not a fan of the new head props. Also not a fan of AZ’s title font - does not suit his demeanor?

Interesting that Ra is Setting Sun - good bookend to Horus Ra’s power Sunrise.

And what does it mean to be Horus of ‘Two Horizons’ anyway?

It means he's the god of both the rising and setting sun!

From wikipedia :

Ra-Horakhty

In later Egyptian mythology, Ra-Horakhty was more of a title or manifestation than a composite deity. It translates as "Ra (who is) Horus of the Horizons". It was intended to link Horakhty (as a sunrise-oriented aspect of Horus) to Ra. It has been suggested that Ra-Horakhty simply refers to the sun's journey from horizon to horizon as Ra, or that it means to show Ra as a symbolic deity of hope and rebirth. (See earlier section: Ra and the sun).

Tachyon’s new costume might not be much different, but there’s not a ton you could add to a speedster’s costume. Anything extraneous might get caught on something while she’s running.

Not that it precludes her from having any Hispanic heritage but the Wraith is Jewish from my understanding.   I also don't believe I've seen any drawings, flavor text, or bio information that would lead me to think she is Hispanic.

Somebody asked earlier what Tachyon is running next to; seems like a bullet train to me.

I honestly have to say that Wraith is my least favorite of the bunch - because of the Spite mask! I just can’t see her having enough sympathy for that guy, or remorse over his demise, to actually adopt a part of him into her public character.

I was not left with an impression of Spite from seeing the mask for the new outfit.   It fits in with the idea that she trying to hide her identity further and doesn't have as menacing a look to me as Spite's mask does. 

I agree. I didn't notice it was very spite like till someone mentioned on here. It's much softer looking. However, it is an interesting choice to make it so close of a resemblance. Perhaps it wasn't intentional? I could see trying to come up with a fresh look, and having explored so many options that are so continuous with her character/super hero type, and seeing this as a much needed freshness for her character in the end.

I don't remember anything about Maia being Hispanic either.

Her surname's English (from a French placename) but of course that doesn't mean very much. Green eyes aren't terribly common in people with Mediterranean ancestry though, are they?

She is definitely Jewish. Whether that's Jewish by ethnicity, religion, culture or some combination of these, I don't know. (Example: I have a friend who describes herself as a Jewish Catholic.)

Honestly, my problem with the hip windows isn't about sexual objectification, but just that it seems a really weird and arbitrary place to leave uncovered.

As for leaving hair uncovered, just how many people do you think A. are going around collecting hair fragments after a superhero fight B. have access to DNA-identifying equipment and C. have a sample of Maia's DNA on file to compare it to?

The Wraith would have all of that! Wait…

Yeah, I kind of agree. The uncovered skin itself doesn't seem objectifying or sexual, it's just that it draws your attention to the fact that she isn't wearing anything underneath.

I guess if a person I wasn't sexually intimate with (or planning to become sexually intimate with) told me with words that they weren't wearing underwear, I'd find that weird and inappropriate unless it was somehow relevant to the conversation (or funny, like when we joke about Ronway not wearing pants). And that's what Wraith's costume does - tells me she's going commando when I didn't ask and don't want to know and it's irrelevant, and that makes me uncomfortable. TMI, ya know?

Baron Blade. Definitely Baron Blade.

Is there anything to prove her being Jewish either?

Excellent, really well written! I was also under the impression that The Wraith actually wants to show some skin. She seems to enjoy being provocative, or maybe it is just a distraction…? Also, see Trust Fund…

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/130#comment-130

I agree the thing Tachyon's running next to looks like a bullet train or Megalopolis monorail.

I think "Ra: Setting Sun" is missing the mark by just a hair.  "Ra: Setting Son" adds a nice layer, don't you think?

If those are "hip Windows", I just keep thinking about that belt over bare skin, especially if it's a carbon-something-or-another material. I guess she didn't think about practicality, because that's definitely going to dig into her skin and leave some marks, especially in the activity of crime fighting, fighting the baddies, etc... I know I'd be sore...

and here's poor tachyon, the science nerd who always wanted to look pretty. She changes her suit again to a full body, skin tight uniform, and everyone is talking about wraith, the billionaire who always gets it all. The only mention I hear of her is how dull her costume is.... Better luck next time

"Crime doesn't keep the sabbath" is still my favorite catchphrase of the Multiverse.

I'm just sad that today was my first time hearing it

I get the sense that most of his encounters with the assembled heroes end with him either tied up, being led to jail, or running away, rather than taking time to scour the scene for hair fibers (presuming any even survive and stay there, rather than get burned up or blown away).

Besides, he's obsessed with Legacy, who has no secret identity – what would he care whose hair was lying around the base?

I always thought Baron Blade ended every battle with Legacy by running away and yelling that Legacy Failed again.

I know Baron Blade shouts something everytime his plans are foiled, but I thought it was more like "Curse you..." and then something about a platypus?

To which Legacy responds "rrrgrgrgrgr".

Where is Perry, anyway?

Ra: Never Not on Fire

Ra: Pants on Fire

this sounds like a perfect variant for an impostor/copycat hero that appears between the first disappearance of Ra and the emergence of Beard Ra

The Ra & Argent Adept combo attack: "Lyre, Lyre, pants on fire!"

<insert applause meme here>

as requested : 

300×168 11.7 KB

 Thank you. Thank you both!

Deal 3 fire damage to any target wearing pants.

tRAgdor, the Burninator.

That would, at least, prevent it from being redirected back to Ra.

I really like a lot of the new art, but there is always some critiquing to do.

Legacy's new costume is interesting, but it bothers me for some reason. I think it is the gloves, I don't know why ut the fact he is wearing gloves is just.... odd to me. Maybe because it implies it is a one-piece costume? Anyways I do like it it just seems strange to me to see LEgacy in that suit.

I love Bunker's new suit, despite the off perspective leg, for one simple reason. It is clearly the precursor to the Tactics Bunker suit built by Tachyon and them. This is great for all the story reasons. Bunker just stopped working for the military and they cut off his access to the suit, this is the prototype of the new suit to come, which helps explain some of the roughness of the design.

Tachyon running next to the bullet train is cool. The costume itself isn't all that amazing or different except in color scheme, butI love the visor she has, defintely a stylish upgrade from her old HUD goggles.

Ra is awesome, he definetly looks very regal and it is a great send off for one of the base heroes. R.I.P. Dr. Washington.

Absolute Zero's outfit is... honestly I'm torn. It looks rough, it looks incomplete. I can see all the negatives about it. But, looking at the frost leaking around the joints I get the feeling this is another rough prototype, something thrown together because the old suit got wrecked and he needed something quickly from the lab. I also do sometimes enjoy the triangle of light face plate, makes him look sort of alien.

Wraith... whoo boy. When I first saw it I loved it. I love the electro-shock knuckles and the Spite style mask. So much potential story in that choice. The white circles in her leggings didn't bother me at first, but the more I've seen it the more it bothers me. The clincher came when someone photoshopped a version that replaced the circles with the red color of the suit. It looked so, so much better to me. I think this is one of the few times I think we should work to have Adam change a design. Maybe the circles would look better if they were grey, or purple or matched the color scheme, but I definetly think the design needs to be altered. It just doesn't work as well as it potentially could.

Sadly, no.  Just as "deal 2 damage to a Villain target" doesn't keep the damage from being redirected to a Hero target later, so too could this get redirected into Ra.  Maybe try "Deal 1 fire damage to any target.  A target damaged this way takes another 2 damage for each pair of pants it's wearing."  That would avoid most of the effect coming back to Ra (or Haka, or Pauline, or whomever).  It would also deal some monstrous damage to the Blade Battalion, or (if Surprise Shopping Trip is in play) Spite.

To be fair, Legacy's original art also has gloves, and also seems to be one piece.

Yeah, there's something odd there to me as well.  In his regular and Tactics outfits, some parts of his arms are always bare.  I feel like that gives more room for movement, if it's not all one piece.  The gloves are probably actually separate in this outfit - they just look like they're not. 

Honestly, I'm surprised that he's getting a promo where he's Paul Parsons VIII.  I wanted one for ages, but then I got the impression that GtG didn't want to do any official Legacy promos that aren't a different Legacy.  Then I started to want what I thought they wanted (because it's their story and we wouldn't have it without them).  I had that so fixed in my head that now I'm not sure how to respond to getting what I used to want.

Regarding Wraith's outfit, the thing that seems oddest to me is the resemblance between her mask and Spite's.  The hip holes are a bit peculiar, but underwear issues failed to occur to me until Silverleaf pointed them out, so I guess I hope they fail to occur to most people?

Regarding the outfits generally, I think Ra looks great, but none of the Freedom Five quite sit well with me.  Maybe they're not fully polished yet.  Or maybe I'm just used to their "iconic" looks and resistant to change - it did take me a while to become accustomed to their Tactics outfits. 

Perhaps this is a alternate universe/timeline freedom 5. And the difference in outfit compared to Tactics is because they are not in fact the same people at all. 

This worried me too

The only thing that bothers me about Legacy's new suit is the line on the boots, but it's not anything I'd lose sleep over. Other than that I think it looks good.

It's like after years of pestering from his daughter to update his 'classic' look, showing him designer hero gear(which I'm guessing exists SOMEwhere in the multiverse), he finally breaks down and let's her design his uniform for the Freedom Five.

Hmm, may be an idea for a mini fan-fic there…

Not gonna lie, when I saw the new Absolute Zero variant I immediately thought of Power Rangers.

"A target damaged this way takes another 2 damage for each pair of pants it's wearing."

I just about choked to death laughing at this. It begs the question: who's wearing more than one pair of pants?

Not the new Wraith, obviously. :V

Well, like I said, Blade Battalion is the obvious one (five pair of pants among them, though doing 11 damage to a 5 HP target is of questionable utility).  I'm pretty sure that Ambuscade is (because he's a silly guy who believes in overwhelming preparations).  Absolute Zero is (he's wearing a thin set of thermals under his armor), which might become relevant.  Zhu Long's operative is probably wearing thermals as well, actually - it's cold in those mountains!  Wager Master is a transdimensional being, and is therefore wearing 1d6-2 pair at any given time (yes, this can result in him healing damage).

There may be some other cases I've not considered - hopefully, someone else will spot them and chime in!

For the record, the official word is that those are hip Windows on the new wraith. It's inspired by Japanese feudal garments, according to Adam. 

And they're going to be removed because so many people hate them, right?

not sure… I doubt it. Maybe start a Petition?

Adam mentioned that the Japanese garment inspiring the "hip windows" is looser than what Wraith is wearing here.  I wonder if he's referring to the hakama, which has gaps at either side below the belt.  The hakama is worn over other clothing, though.  I have one myself and can't imagine wearing it with nothing underneath.

Of course any medieval Japanese garment is going to be looser, as form-fitting just doesn't work before the development of stretchy fabrics. I also thought about the hakama (although I didn't know the name).

To provide people with the exact quote, Adam said as follows: "It's a reference to specific feudal Japanese clothing.  It was done usually with more billowy fabric (and more revealing as such) to allow more freedom of movement."  I mean, sure, it would've been more revealing if people wore nothing under it, but that's not how it's worn.

I find that the hakama allows good freedom of movement and nice back support.  In terms of stretchiness, it's of course not stretchy in the way of modern fabrics, as you say, but each hakama can fit a wide range of different sizes of people.  You order it by height, not waist size (unless you're unusually big around the waist).  The long belt can be wrapped around the waist more or fewer times, however big or small one's waist is, assuming one isn't so large that one can't fit into the hakama at all.  But with the Wraith's outfit being fairly tight and form-fitting, I can't imagine that the holes at the hips give additional freedom of movement. 

Anyway, it might be a moot point, as frankly the bandages of her original outfit aren't very practical either.  In particular, I have no idea how her bandage facemask works.  It must wrap around the back of her head to stay up, but her hair is hanging loose there...  So it's possible that we may have to accept a certain lack of realism in general.

Alright I figure I chime in on the costumes as everyone is doing.  I'll talk about Wraith last since that is the part that is getting the biggest discussion here. 

Legecy: I love the outfit, it's sleak, it looks cool, it fits the charcter. Love to see it on America's greatest Legecy. 

Bunker: It works, I don't get a team vibe from it but it does look better then other bunker armors to me. 

Tachyon: She is one of my favorite characters and I think this might be her least cool look. That said I love the blue, I love a lot about the design it just isn't as cool as it is like "I'm a serious super hero" and maybe that's the point. 

Zero: I don't think his costume is bad I just think his first costume is really awesome. I mean it was hard to get cooler to me then his first costume and this costume rides a little below it. That said if it has a good ability I'll most likely play it. 

Wraith: First off anyone talking about objectifaction and stuff is totally with in their right, we should be happy to listen to people discuss things they think are an issue, more so in consumer goods like this.  That said I don't think it's really objectifaction as poor design choices. There is some cool concepts here, I love the mask idea it totally makes sense but the mask being red does make her look like spite a little. I do love she is keeping some of her iconic purple since it would have been easy to try and dump more red white and blue onto her. The pants on her are too skin tight looking to really work with that Japanese style. I think that oddly enough despite not really noticing before the bit of clevage is more noticable on this version prehaps just with the other skin she is showing outwise. I love that she is packing some muscle, she is like batman so she should be a bit ripped (I heard she had an 8 pack). I think with just an adjustment on the pants and maybe turning the red to blue we could have a pretty damn near perfect design but these minor things make it a bit of a meh design for me personally. I love so much about it but there is a lot of conflicting feelings.  

This made me laugh. Does anyone think Adam is the type to change something because people don't like it? Half the new people I introduce the game to hate the artwork (not me though I've loved it from the start). Maybe there is some precident but I general feel that Adam and Christopher create the world and characters and all the dislike in the world won't change their vision.

I tend to agree, cnranger.  The kinds of feedback-based changes I expect from GtG relate to balance issues that arise from playtesting.  I don't have much expectation of change with regards to flavour and style.

Adam is definitely not likely to change his position on something like this. Not his style. I could be wrong, but that just doesn't seem like him…

But even Adam will readily admit he's not happy with the original art from the core game. (Which is why some of the art was updated with the enhanced edition, although there wasn't time/money to do that much.)

Am I the only one that sees a 10th Anniversary Edition in our future with all sorts of tweeks to the Core Set art (not that I think there's anything wrong with it; I still use my 1st printing Ra card from time to time).

That will be a shame. I thought about the coincidence with the Japanese costume (mostly from Ibuki from Street Fighter) but it just doesn't come across at all. There's no point to it. Wraith has a Spite semblance, with the cementery on the back (rather suggestive!), covering her face with a mask and tech knuckles. Where does the feudal thing comes from? I would understand if there were Zhu Long references but… no, it's just bad.

Odd maybe but I don't agree it's bad. I get why people say it looks like Spite but it doesn't line up with Spite's mask from my viewpoint.  All it shares is red color.  It is appears to be cloth not solid, it is not cracked, the eyes aren't glowing, and the eye don't look menacing.   

In a recent Twitch stream, I asked Adam if he thought they'd redo the core set with updated art, and he said that if there was sufficient interest, they might be able to.

I definitely think there's interest, myself, and I think the game would significantly benefit from a new version.

We'll see what happens…

I can easily see a second edition for the whole game in a few years. It would allow for some potential rule updates and character overhauls plus a rework of art that could include more alt art/promo costumes on card art.

I would drop 40-ish bucks on a re-Enhanced Edition of the core with new art (Adam has gotten SO MUCH better since then), tightened card wordings, and ideally a couple of small tweaks to card counts in the more troubled decks.

Note that I still have the non-Enhanced core game, and never "upgraded" - the changes in the Enhanced edition were too small for me to rebuy something I mostly have already.  But even 50% of the cards getting new and improved art would win me over without a second thought.

Would be nice if some tweaks were made, like the various cards that destroy all ongoings and/or equipment getting scaled back a bit. I mean not necessarily that specific tweak but that kind of tweak, bring the decks more into line with the more modern stuff.

See, it's interesting to me that you say that, since my ideal tweaks are mostly on the Hero side - I'd rather reduce the number of Ongoings destroyed by Ball Lightning than by Devastating Aurora.  I know I'm in the minority there, though.

The tweak I was think of was how EE very slightly changed the numbers of cards in Absolute Zero's deck (-1 Null Point Calibration Unit, +1 Frostbound Drain, I believe).  Since my biggest objection to AZ's style with either set of numbers is how often his hand gets clogged with endless Modules (and Module tutors) without transitioning to the great mid game he can have using those One-Shots, a little more tuning in that direction would be music to my ears.

But, in the end, I know that to be unlikely.  Fancy new art is my primary hope.

Honestly, the tweak I'd make to Ball Lightning is putting the Ongoing destruction first -- it's a liability against, say, Iron Legacy if he's got his deflection Ongoing out.

@Ironic, you know that you can use Onboard Module Installation to thin out his deck and get down to the other cards, right?

As I said, I know I'm in the minority - perhaps with nobody outside of my playgroup joining me.  To me, occasional downsides like that are welcome, since in general, Tempset seems so powerful that I feel like I can never play one of my favorite-themed heroes.

But the endless debate of hero power level isn't the issue here.  My point is, a few errata would be welcome, but new art is my main desire, and that seems to track with what I see other people posting.

P.S.: DPT, I understand that you are trying to be helpful, and appreciate your comments in the spirit that they're intended.  I does bother me how often the community's response to any complaint about any hero is to assume it must arise from ignorance rather than experience, however.

My reason for what I said is that destroying everything across the board isn't really all that much fun.

I take your point.

To be fair, if I recall correctly, EE did change Omnitron's cards to only take out H Ongoings/Equipments.  So it's probably just Devastating Aurora which wipes everything?  And that is kind of its "thing".  Do I have that right?  I'm not totally on top of what is and isn't in EE, for obvious reasons.

Omnitron's card destroy everything.

My mistake - thanks for the heads-up!

I personally think that part of the fun of facing Dawn or Omnitron or Voss is the fact that some of their cards are blatantly and crushingly overpowered. When I face Iron Legacy or The Chairman, I know what I'm getting into. All of their cards are going to destroy me in some way. But the base game villains can make you sweat with the terrible knowledge that they're only one card play away from obliterating all of your plans and laughing maniacally as everything you worked towards crumbles to dust.

Call me a masochist, but I like that feeling of silent fear. It makes the scary villains who are trying to take over the world scary as opposed to Iron Legacy predictably pounding you into a thick paste for the 5th time.

The difference is, Dawn is a 3 and Iron Legacy is a 4. Baron Blade and Omnitron are supposed to be the easiest villains in the whole game, but they have cards that can easily be a TPK if you're not prepared to either scry the deck constantly, and the only way to avoid that TPK in Blade's case is to wipe everyone's board.

The first time we played the game, my group interpreted Devious Disruption to mean each hero takes damage based on his or her own ongoings/equipments, because the way it's actually ruled seemed too crushingly unfair at the time.

i agree with someone above. The tension of not knowing when the crushing cards are gonna come is part of the fun.

That's the point?

To clarify, none of the villains are supposed to feel "easy"*. Otherwise, why would the world's greatest heroes need to be there in the first place? If difficulty 1s were never a challenge, facing them would be dull. Coming out on top despite a poorly timed Electro-pulse Explosive or Devious Disruption makes victory all the sweeter. If you get crushed because of an overpowered card, that sucks, but nobody ever said saving the multiverse would be easy.

*Chokepoint, Gloomweaver, and Ambuscade skirt dangerously close to this territory sometimes.

Sure, but... Gloomweaver is a 3.  The listed Complexity ratings for villains are pretty wildly divergent from their actual performances, but that's a distinct problem from the massive stuff-breaking effects from the Core Set.  The word is that the Ultimate Case will have a new villain chart with updated ratings based on years of feedback, so that problem should get somewhat addressed on its own terms.

(Whilst we're on that subject, I hope that final chart has asterisks next to a few villains, such as The Ennead, which substantially change their difficulty level when faced in Advanced mode.)

I have found that one of the most important skills to learn in SotM is what will kill you and what will only hurt you. You win by having 1 hero at 1 hp, and lose if that hero loses that 1 hp. For many of the easier villains, even if they go all out and are frustrating, you aren't always in danger of losing. 

Agreed. Experience simply gives players more ways to manage such cards’ effects, while retaining the threat they bring!

For me, the difficulty level is an indication of how often players feel threatened by the appearance of such cards.

I tend to disagree, because every time Dawn does her Devastating Aurora I feel it ends up being especially thematic.  The heroes have build up to destroy her - and she flips the board.

Coming right after the environment play makes it seem especially thematic to the game, like Dawn is reacting to the situation in a way that accounts for more than the heroes. When you pull out "Lost in Time," "Propulsion Systems," "Self-Destruct Sequence," or the like, it seems like Citizen Dawn has had enough of this situation where she could lose just as much as the heroes do, and she decides to JUST BLOW EVERYTHING UP.

I agree that sometimes it can be brutal and you lose the game in the end, but that's the way it is sometimes and that's one of the reasons why Citizen Dawn is a difficult villain to fight. I'm glad "those cards" are in there, because they force the players to re-evaluate their strategies in a way that "the villain deals each target H - 2 melee damage" or "reduce damage to all villain targets by 1" do not. The best games are the ones that go back and forth and the heroes win in the end after a ferocious battle!

And isn't it a harder decision to have to choose which cards go than it is to simply sweep the board clean? I mean aside from sweeping the board entirely clean is a) something villains don't do in the expansions without a way to prevent it and b) something that disproportionately impacts some heroes over others.

Maybe.  But Devious Disruption, which several people are painting with the same brush here, is certainly an even harder decision than deciding which H cards to sacrifice, right?

So, different choices and gamestates speak to different people.  I've not seen any consensus on how much randomness is good for a game among SotM players in the last five years, and I doubt this thread will be the moment when that changes.  Tastes differ.

I'm still going to slap Christopher with Devostating Aurora.

(JK...maybe.)

Won't work, he's a villain target.

Actually sometimes when the Baron pulls Devious Disruption just as I finally got everyone set up, I just say "bring it", eat the 10 or 12 or 15 points of damage and then try to crush him with my fully set up (but down to single digit HP) heroes. Works way more often than I would have expected before I tried it.

Ditto.

I guess to explain what I mean by "easy" villains, I tend to look at the ratings as

1. Any team can beat them with relatively little trouble, and losses are attributed to extreme bad luck or spectactular failure to prepare. These are starter villains you use to introduce the game to people.

2. Any team can beat them, there'll be some trouble, but for the most part, playing straightforwardly will get the job done.

3. Any team can beat them, but you'll have a lot of trouble if you don't know what you're in for and you're much more likely to lose to carelessness.

4. Any team can beat them, provided they draw the right cards quickly and the villain draws its least useful cards until you've had several rounds to set up. Winning reliably all but requires not only that you know what you're in for, but that you have a team specifically suited to the villain and are lucky.

"Well, you have to wipe your board now or die" and "Well, you have to wipe your board now and you die" are the kinds of out-of-nowhere kicks in the head that feel out of place on villains supposed to be rated at the lowest difficulty. I expect Dawn to have something like that. But with Dawn, you can avoid it if you're prepared.

I've had Wraith go from nearly full health to completely wiped out because of one Technological Singularity that came out despite diligent Infrared Eye-Piece use. To my knowledge, it's the only card that can pop out so unexpectedly and outright kill you because you've gotten set-up fully, and there's no way to mitigate the effects once the card pops up (unlike Devious Disruption, which lets you destroy stuff first).

It's like the boss in the video game's tutorial level randomly one-shotting everyone. It just feels wrong to me that the two lowest-rated villains are the ones I make sure to have deck control for, but against higher rated villains like Voss or Gloomweaver I feel I can usually leave it behind.

I actually like Devastating Aurora. It's OP, obviously, but you can play around it by not over-extending too hard when fighting Citizen Dawn. It even has a benefit for the heroes in destroying all environment cards (this is usually a good thing). I'd take that any day over cards like Raiding Party which have basically no counter-play whatsoever.

I think this is where I disagre with you. Deck manipulation is only one way to handle those cards, they can be handled in a variety of ways, and you don't have to resort to deck manipulation. Teaching you how to handle those cards with easy villains is a good thing.

It's the only truly reliable way I can think of (less reliable for Omnitron's case, though, with its second card play a round and everyone's favorite, Terraforming). Yes, Devious Disruption can be neutered by hitting him with a Throat Jab or similar, but the only way to know it's coming is with some kind of deck manipulation, otherwise it's straight gambling. And if you have deck manipulation to see what's coming, then you might as well just send it to the bottom of the deck anyway.

Unless there's a card that lets you look at the top of a deck but only place it back in one of the decks I'm not familiar with.

Legacy or Ra + Visionary can do it, too (though Unity will still feel it in the latter case), but without deck manipulation, that entails either guessing when it's about to come out, or dedicating one of their Power uses to anticipating it. In either case, the game ends up revolving around waiting for Devious Disruption to come out.

For Technological Singularity, even if you keep Omnitron from doing damage, it's still completely wiping your equipment. Which isn't as bad, but still a major pain. That said, most "Destroy H Equipiment/Environment" cards tend to come out when I've got fewer than H of those cards out in the first place, which puts it on par with those.

I politely disagree with this.

Saying that a villain should be easy because there is an arbitrary difficulty number attatched to it is counter-intuitive to me. If a villain is so easily cowed that a slight breeze could have defeated them, then there is no enjoyment to be gained from foiling their evil plot.

(Fun little side note: It's interesting that most of the hardest villains are built in a way that deck maipulation does relatively to them. The Chairman is always shuffling his deck, The Matriarch doesn't really care which bird is on the top of her deck, because she's going to play eight more regardless, and picking which of two or three ways Iron Legacy is going to kill you is time better spent getting your affairs in order before Iron Legacy kills you.)

In fact, this is exactly what I meant about being a very interesting choice - especially given the clock that Blade (or, better yet, Advanced Challenge Mode Blade) puts you on.

I respectfully disagree with this.  In fact, it's a matter of some consternation to me how completely a turn 1 Brain Burn can neuter The Chairman - though he's not quite alone in that predicament.

Still, I suppose I concur in theory, if not in implementation - one of my favorite things about Vengeance-style games is how they keep deck manipulation (and even its ultimate apotheosis, Take Down and Mistbind) from becoming the silver bullet it often is even in the hardest standard games - I am gratified to hear that OblivAeon will have three decks, which may lead to a similar effect.  Now, if only there were some way to keep Ground Pound/Heroic Interception type schenanigans from being win buttons.

I impolitely and unrespectfully disagree with everyone. Because.

It's not that I think the villain should be easy because there's an "arbitrary difficulty number attached." It's that the game says that they're the lowest difficulty villains. I mean, presumably they didn't assign those numbers randomly – the number is there to represent a given value of difficulty.

That said, take away Devious Disruption and Technological Singularity, and Blade and Omnitron are really easy. Omnitron's most dangerous cards take effect at the start of his turn. The drones' effects multiply if there's more out, but Omnitron can at most play two drones around, and you have to be trying to not have a party that can manage at least four damage a round. The only way he's threatening with the drones is if there's a really rough Terraforming that puts out several all at once (which is still preferable, to me, to putting out Technological Singularity)

Blade's damage is either minimal or focused on the highest HP hero. Impending Doom becomes his most dangerous card because it plays another card, but even that's not so bad except for how often it seems to lead to Devious Disruption.

So it's not that I think they should be easy – it's that those cards feel really out of place compared to the rest of the deck they're in.

(Fun little side note: It's interesting that most of the hardest villains are built in a way that deck maipulation does relatively to them. The Chairman is always shuffling his deck, The Matriarch doesn't really care which bird is on the top of her deck, because she's going to play eight more regardless, and picking which of two or three ways Iron Legacy is going to kill you is time better spent getting your affairs in order before Iron Legacy kills you.)

I'll have to disagree on the Chairman – you can at least keep him from putting two Underbosses out at once. The Matriarch, yeah, unless you're lucky you're just gonna get two birds, but things like Suggestion are still useful.

Also disagree on Iron Legacy – you can at least limit who he's hitting and keep him from putting out another buffing Ongoing.

I respectfully disagree with these definitions of the difficulty levels.

I don't think level 1 villains are meant to be easy tutorial villains that you discard after inevitable victory.

I think they are meant to be villain easy to understand both in the way they play, and the way you can beat them. They are the villain that teach you the strategies you will use later in more complex fights, like the value of sacrifice - or the fact that a good set-up is not necessary to do something.

Blade with his countdown is a good example, I think : to beat him, you have to learn to hit hard and fast, even if it means not losing time trying to prevent the damage he does. Even if it means having AZ use all is one-shots without taking the time to put a module in play. It's one of the reasons I rarely use him as the first Villain to teach new players, by the way. Another being that nearly all the cards in his deck are frighteningly powerful - his only weakness being that he rarely does anything more than playing one of them and politely ending his turn…

The fact that they have devastating cards  is what makes them still interesting to play for an experienced player, in my opinion. Yes, they are a tutorial - but not a tutorial on how to play the game, like in a video game. They are a tutorial about how to think when playing SotM.

The higher the villain difficulty level, the harder it is to juggle all the seemingly less devastating effects they have.

I have probably something like a thousand games under my belt now - and I still play against Blade, Omnitron, Ambuscade and friends - because they still have ways to surprise me and push me in a corner where I have to improvize and use everything I know to win, even if it's only in one game from time to time.

About Devastating Aura : it may be a frustrating card. But even with it, Dawn is less difficult to fight than the Organization. The card feels devastating - but is just a temporary setback, not an instant lose.

Maybe the fact that I rarely play non-random teams taints my apreciations of the villains and what I expect a fight to be in SotM.

Don't nerf my Villains  !

I don't want to detract from the current topic in this page, but this is the only thread where I thought I might make a comment on a theory I have about the variant cards of the Freedom Five. Specifically the powers they'll bring, and specifically Bunker's, when I saw the tabletop game's version of bunker, he seemed statted like an indestructible tank, just like his name states and how his principle is layed out, but I don't feel this way in the card game as far as I've played him as even the Scholar gets better DR than Bunker with a single card.

So I'll just make a theory that his base power will be something like "Until the start/end of his next turn, take -1 damage from any(?) source of damage."

This would definitely make someone feel over time that Bunker really is that guy in the heavy suit of armor once they pull out turret mode and they start using both a weapon and have heavy plating out to support the DR.

I don't know if this would make Bunker overpowered or not, because it seems like such a simple idea so it must have been tested heavily. It feels overpowered thinking about it, so maybe it could be something like "Gain 2 armor tokens (Bunker may store H max armor tokens, Bunker may spend up to two armor tokens to reduce damage by up to two from any source.)"

I'd be happy to be proven wrong but as far as I've played Bunker, he's never felt a walking tank compared to other heroes.

It is certainly among the ironies of Bunker's life that, despite literally being a tank, that's not his combat role even just among the Freedom Five - it's Legacy's (Legacy is also amazing at other things, but that's Legacy for you).

I respectfully disagree that that's the best way to fight the Chairman. The sooner you get those Underbosses out of the deck, the sooner you kill half of the Operative's utility.

Either way, your playstyles are both assisted by deck manipulation, is the point.

(Also, Brain Burn.  For real.)

Didn't say it was the best or only way. But a big part of the Chairman's difficulty is how quickly he can flood the board with his goons, so I see little reason to let him double up on that in one turn.

I've actually felt the same way ever since I first played Bunker. My first time EVER playing sotM I picked him, and I remember wondering why he only could ever get out 1 DR without totally shutting down(Recharge Mode). For someone going around in massive power armor he can feel incredibly squishy compared to less armored heroes like Scholar(Yes he can turn into iron, but I'd think Bunker would be covered in even stronger stuff ALL THE DAMN TIME).

I'd love to test out either one of those powers at some time. A better wording would be "Bunker takes 1 less damage until the end of his next turn". The token fueled one is cool too. Any ideas what the HP would be? I'd say maybe 29-30 to make him more tank-y.

A token-based armor would be interesting. (Or, for that matter, power cell tokens that let you use more powers.) But it’s hard to see how those would integrate into Bunker’s play without any mentions in his cards.

That is a great idea for a power. Or perhaps even -2 until the start of your next turn. I like the idea of tokens as well.  

-2 damage for a full turn would be arguably the strongest base power in the game - compare it to things like The Wraith's Stealth, which has that effect on a single attack.  -1 damage also seems over the line to me, but amusingly, probably wouldn't do anything too crazy with Bunker - he has no redirection tricks, and it doesn't speed up his ponderous set-up time, so it's only really going to shine when he combines it with Heavy Plating and/or Recharge Mode, and faces villains who only attack the highest HP hero for 3 or fewer damage.  When you're not fighting Apostate, it shouldn't break anything.

The idea with the tokens would be the decision to "Defend" in the game by holding onto tokens if you want to brace for something and afterwards, if you havent' taken damage, you can keep holding onto them until you need to hold your position in the HP target list. And he doesn't need his cards to interact with his armor tokens since they're good enough as they are.

Agreed that, for being the most team-oriented versions of the Freedom Five, the outfits sure don't reflect that.

Tachyon and Legacy look good together.  Thumbs up here, although Legacy's outfit is barely different from is original one.

AZ's blue is too pale to match--I feel like this was a missed opportunity to go with white on blue for him. And I agree that the triange visor seems to have no peripheral vision.

Wraith's red and purple are a complete mismatch with the rest, and it really is hard to tell whether the hips and sleeves are supposed to be the same color as her neck and cleavage--and if they are, that belt's gotta chafe like crazy.  And the mask really does look like Spite.  I do like how the cape has the same shape as Legacy's though.

I like the shape of Bunker's suit, but the color scheme again doesn't match anybody, not even Wraith, and I don't see where all his guns fit into that.

I feel like, to make this feel like a team, they should focus on two colors, maybe highlights from a third.  The problem is that Wraith is traditionally black, while Legacy is traditionally white.  Black and blue or white and blue would be my preferences.  The "Arkham City" Batman art was white, so Wraith could certainly pull that off, but blue would also work.  Legacy would look cool in a blue or black outfit--a lot of superheroes wear black at some point in their careers, for whatever reason.  AZ usually wears black, so blue or white would be good choices.  Bunker is a suit, anything would be fine as long as it matches, though black makes the most sense.

Do they need to have a similar color scheme to be a team?

The Prime Wardens got away with doing their own thing on their team promos, so why can't the Freedom Five?

I don't think they neccesarily need the same color scheme, after all if we look to the Justice League or The Avengers, they are just as wildly different designs and color schemes. The Freedom Five are a group of heroes who came together to fight a cause, in the comic lore I imagine they were individual comic lines that merged, so it isn't surprising that they don't have a unified color scheme.

Also, though slightly off topic, an anecdote from today's digital matches. I fought Ambuscade twice today. I normally don't have too many problems with him. However....

First match wasn't going great. Full random team and not a lot of damage on the board, I'm struggling to take out his devices (two of his shields, two turrets, and a gun I think). Things get a little easier with an Explosives wagon. Finally get them low when Charged Attacks comes out, got to wait a turn for someone to get rid of it. Environment plays the Hayes brother with the big gun, he destroys a device, charged attacks goes off, destroys a device, ect. ect. ect. My heroes went from over twenty health each (I think the lowest was 23) to all but two of the five being incapped as the entire town of silver gulch became a giant crater. Then Ambuscade stepped out of the smoke (untouched because of his cloaking device) and finished my poor heroes off with a rocket propelled grenade.

A little later I pull a different team into the realm of discord, four heroes this time. I won, but barely, as Ambuscade spent the entire match cloaked. I would break his cloaking device only to have him reshuffle and play it again either directly or through his Vanish one-shot. And since I could never hit him he just kept throwing bombs and devices in my way while I waited. His fate once he left the safety of the shadows was not a pretty one. I took him from full to out before the end of the heroes turns, and Tachyon still had at least another 40 damage sitting back waiting for him.

What? The Prime Wardens all have red and yellow.

The same thing could happen here. Just like the Argent Adept has his base silver + the team red-and-yellow cape, Legacy could be base white with red and blue, Wraith could be base black with red and blue, and so on.

HINT: Legacy always has red and blue as well as white.  I think it's because of his pride a Frenchman, or possibly Nepalese.  I'll look it up when I get home.

But, to be fair, only about half of the Prime Wardens had to change up their looks to add red/gold, so that has precedent, as well.

Please, someone make America's Frenchest Legacy XD

Power: Deal 100 pyshic damage to anyone with an international order.