Assembling the Story

Alright. So, I've started trying to do some work on my own on trying to put together the Multiverse story. Trying to beat the potential book telling the real story from >G that's been speculated about. It seems like there are a couple of things that have, to an extent, frustrated this process in the past. What I'd like to do is to come up with some rules that are, generally speaking, true, to help tie down some of the content that we have more securely to storyline. Here are what I see as things that have made the process difficult.

1. Absolutely anything could be an alternate timeline/vision of Visionary/alternate reality created by Nightmist.

2. The art on the card does not necessarily tie out to the flavor text and comic issue citation.

Going through the forums for information, I've seen either/both of these derail pretty good detective and assembly work. After all, how are you going to argue with "you could just be completely wrong"? With that in mind, I'm going to make two assumptions:

1. Aside from Shattered Timelines cards/cards that explicitly show Visionary/Nightmist and imply visions/monkeying with things (e.g. Prophetic Vision), things shown on the cards are in the main timeline unless that is demonstrably untrue (e.g. creation of Iron Legacy).

2. Because the art loses lots of value unless it can be temporally placed (e.g. it could be ANY fight with Voss!), I'm going to assume that unless there is a large disjunction between quote and artwork, the art is from the same issue. In some cases, this isn't super relevant, because the art, while good, doesn't show much story-wise. But when there is real story content, I'm going to assume it's from that book, again, unless this is demonstrably untrue.

It would sure be nice to know from Christopher or Adam if these are reasonably accurate (true more often than not), but that might be too much to hope for. ;)

The other real questions that I have are related to real-life expansion timing and storyline timing. Has anyone ever asked whether, generally speaking, the events depicted in the base set happen, then Rook City, then Infernal Relics, then Shattered, etc, with an occasional outlier card that shows something previous or later happening? Or is it truly any card could happen at any time. And, just for reference, when I talk about something happening "before" or "after", I mean with respect to when it is experienced in the main storyline. 

On the forum scouring front, here's another little tidbit:

Adam (http://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/what%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%E2%84%A2s-vial-doom) – The matter in the “vial of doom” on the Baron Blade card “Hasten Doom” is “actually created by Baron Blade, it's a radioactive substance designed to interact with the Parsons' specific genetic code and drain them of their strength. He's clever like that.”

Thoughts?

BLM

I'm fairly certain that the expansions aren't necessarily in chronological order, but I don't have a source for that.

I also strongly suspect that this is the case, but the release of the "big bad" as the last expansion made me think that it was at least worth asking.

1. You can't take anything from expansion-timing at face value to inform storyline-timing. Captain Cosmic was released in game as the last of the Prime Wardens team and a few exansions after Infernal Relics. Storyline-wise however, Captain Cosmic was the 2nd member of the Prime Wardens and assisted Argent Adept in his first fight against Akash. Some things might fall in line this way, like the Moonfall arc(Baron Blade's teralunar beam gambit) going right into the Sunrise arc (with meeting Citizen Dawn for the first time), but that is not always gonna be the case. The storylines, like in real comics, will be much more intertwined and fluid where expansions are packaged together by theme.

2. Some things are just gonna be flat out impossible to place in the story timeline. Take War of Heliopolis for example. There are no clues whatsoever as to when this takes place other than "after Bearded Ra and Enneads first appearance but before OblivAeon". Super helpful. If you used some context clues and some educated guessing, you might be able to place the short series Baptism By Fire (Fanatic's rescue of Ra from Set) as happening right Heliopolis, but when does that take place? The answer is "after Fanatics and Beard Ra's first apperance but before OblivAeon". That didn't get us very far did it? Can we use more clues to find out when Baptism By Fire took place? I'm not gonna say there arn't any, but I have yet to find one. This whole example applies to a bunch of other stories as well. This one just illustrates my point well.

3. If you were going to tackle this endevor, the best place to start would be the Freedom Five Anuals. Those are the yearly issues of major hero teamups to combat major villian storylines. If this were a physical puzzle, the Anuals would be all of the edge pieces you put together first before digging into the middle pieces.

4. Flavor Text vs Art. As a rule of thumb, if the flavor text doesn't directly reference what is happening in the art you cannot make any assumption about them being connected or not. And honestly even then this method has broken down in the past. The most notable example of this is Unity's Platform Bot. The flavor text references the bot and it's cuteness, but it has been confirmed that the art does not match the flavor text (take note that the text is from a Vengance issue, but Baron in the art is post-scar-healing which places the art fairly far past Vengance.

I don't wanna be a debbie downer here. But if this was easy, we would have done this a long time ago. We are all happy to help you though. Let us know what you find.

Edit: Baptism by Fire. Not Trial.

In my one attempt with a timeline for sentinels, my friend and I started by laying out the Freedom Five annual's (and the regular FF comics) out to get a sort of skeleton of the story before we start filling it in. It seems (from what I remember) that the base game rook city and Infernal relics all happen at the same nebulous amount of time around the FFA 1-24. (I just looked this up so I'll be more specific) Wager Master appears in issue 23. Shattered timelines (at least the Iron Legacy storyline) happens in Issue 25. Vegeance is 27. Progeny is 29 (deadline comes right before Progeny but he seems not to have a FFA issue).

 So generally Base/IR/RC ->Main Story of ST ->Main Story of Vengeance -> Main Story of WoTC -> OblivAeon

Edit: The Heroes' stories are allllll over the place and are not at all attached to their expansions i.e Chrono Ranger appears in FFA storylines before Visionary even though Visionary has 3 expansion on Chrono

I want to be totally clear that I was in no way implying that this was easy. Heck, if it was easy, I would have done it a long time ago

1. I pretty well figured this was the case, but thought I'd ask.

2. No doubt that this is the case, particularly in the case of events that include "promo" (single-card) versions of the characters. Some of them show up on art on other cards, but many of them are pretty limited.

3. That was my planned place to start Well, the annuals and the main Freedom Five comic.

4. I guess what I was wondering was how far this had ever been confirmed. I know that there are cases where there is no link between flavor text and art, otherwise the comment of "some aren't connected" would never be made. While it is certainly safest to assume that they are only linked if there is a direct, obvious link (moreso than the Platform Bot example), it seems like we are going to miss a lot of opportunities if we just adhere to this as the rule, but the reality is much broader. What I was suggesting was the inverse - assume that they are connected unless (like the Platform Bot example you give) that assumption is demonstrably untrue.

Just my $0.02.

BLM

This issue here is that you are going to start basing an argument around an assumption that just doesn't hold true in a lot of cases. It's fine to make assumptions and have theories and all of that. Hell I do it all the time. But it's hard to make a serious argument when the very foundation of it has serious and confirmed flaws.

If you are going to start at the basis of just assuming the flavor matches the art, at some point you are going to need some kind of additional context clues or reasons to prop up that assumption. It just can't be taken at face value. I think doing so will veer you in the wrong direction more times than it will help you. Especialy if the goal is to create a single story timeline, you will find yourself trying to fit square pegs into round holes making all the assumptions you make fit together, and the worst of it is that you will know in the back of your mind that a handful of your puzzle pieces will be wrong since those assumptions can't all be correct.

@ Foote

I think that yours is an absolutely fair argument, and with it you (or anyone else) can be relatively certain that the conclusions that they reach are very likely to be accurate. 

I think the primary spot where I'm pushing is it seems like you are viewing the assumption as an assumption made at one point, but which has been proven flawed in some cases, and is therefore entirely incorrect. What I'm asking is, is it possible that the assumption is correct, it just has exceptions? I work in a field where there's piles and piles of rules, and almost all of them have exceptions. That doesn't mean that the rules are wrong, they just aren't right in all cases. So, you don't throw out the rule, you just look out for the exceptions.

I guess maybe a couple hypothetical examples would be worthwhile here. If four cards quote Freedom Five #'s between 130 and 133, and the art on all of those cards shows Voss in some way, I think it's probably reasonable to conclude that there may be a story arc in issues 130 to 133 that involves Voss. It's pretty unlikely to be pure statistical randomness. That said, if all you have is one card with a Voss picture on it, and an unrelated quote from issue 131, I'd agree with you that it's a pretty tenuous leap to suggest that there's a Voss story arc in those issues. Or if you had the first scenario, and another single card with Dawn on it and a quote from #132, it's probably a pretty tenous leap to suggest a Dawn/Voss teamup in those issues.

I think, in the end, I'm agreeing with you - one piece of art with one quote doesn't represent a conclusion. I just think that a couple of instances that correspond could compel a pretty credible conclusion. And maybe these are pure hypotheticals, and I will find that they don't really exist when I am finished looking. But I still think it's worth looking ;)

BLM

I highlighted the important part. This is exactly what I talked about in my response to you. The assumption can't be made on face value alone and that you would need supporting evidence to prop it up. A few corresponding instances that mesh together to prop up your argument is not only valid but it turns your entire argument from shoddy to highly compelling.

We are on the same page here my friend. We only disagree on where we start the argument. I stand by my assertion that the starting assumption should be that the flavor text and art are not connected until a reasonable argument can be made against it. Though if there is supported evidence either way the end result might likely be the same.

For what is found, by any who start to look, and at the suggestion of Maynes32, ive put together a singular page on the wiki for the story arcs, that can be a centralized place to see the story.

http://sotm.wikidot.com/the-comics

It obviously will need a lot of work, and if anyone has any feedback on the formating (Ie, any other sections you think should be in it?) let me know and I can update the template.

As always, if anyone needs any advice/help in editing the wiki, feel free to PM me - I tried to make it as easy as possible to update, with comment clues throughout.

Aside from Baron Blade (Moon arc, Mad Bomber Blade arc, Vengeance Arc) and the Villains of the Multiverse repeats, is there anyone else that we know of that either a) has been demonstrably fought at more than one point in time or b) is reasonably believed to have been fought at more than one point?

Same questions for only once - anyone that has demonstrably only been fought once?

In trying to get the comics to line up, it seems like anyone like this, where there is a fixed interaction once, would be pretty useful. I think that the Dreamer probably falls into this bucket, but is there anyone else? Akash'Bhuta? Or am I wrong on both?

BLM

Infinitor, Kismet, GloomWeaver, Spite and Omnitron spring to mind

I do remember Chris or someone saying that the Argent Adept is unusual among the Virtuosos of the Void for having to fight Akash'Bhuta repeatedly -- usually, she goes dormant for a while after being fought once.

Dawn is certainly encountered on multiple occasions. You can see flavor text of her speaking as far as the #700s of the Freedom 5 serial. She also first appeared during the "Sunrise" arc which takes place directly after "Moonfall".

Ennead have two major battles that we know of. The first ending in Ra's defeat and subsequent disaperance for a few years. The next is when Ra finally shows up as Horus of Two Horizons, beard and all, and battles them again. I *believe* this second battle is "War of Heliopolis", but that could refer to the first major battle as well, im unsure. Im not sure if Ra wins or loses this 2nd battle, but we know at some point he is captured and enslaved by Set.

Most *major* villains will have certainly been fought on more than one occasion. Though it is possible that the story arc with the Dreamer, for instance, was a one-off thing. Same thing with Iron Legacy, thats a one-and-done. Gloomweaver was battled on many occasion, but Its possible the Skinwalker and Gloom Spite version were one-off story arcs (and Spite has been battled by Wraith on a few occasion).

I think it would be a better question to ask if "any villain was included in multiple major story arcs", because just asking if they have been fought more than once will almost always be yes (even if its not specifically documented).

I forget who said it, but it was in reference to the appearance of Akash'Dharsha in the Tactics time-frame. So Akhash'Bhuta would only appear once during the time covered by SotM. (Although it's likely she fought more than one hero team during that one appearance.)

You're always coming out with great tidbits like this! How do we know this?

Horus Ra's incap art

You can learn some interesting things by looking at the first apeparance issues of the villains. Two thing I just noticed, Ermine's first appearance is before Spite, and Proletariat's first appearance is before Baron Blade.

I infered it from Horus's incap artwork. You also see Ra in the same position on the cover for the Trial By Fire one-shot (found among the covers in the challenge mode docs) where Fanatic comes to his rescue.

I'm not saying that Ra gets captured after that 2nd major battle though. It could happen before/during/or after. No clues to tell us one way or the other. We just kinda know it happens at some point.

Baptism by Fire and is #4 of 6.

Me. Here

Damn you're right! I've been calling it by the total wrong name. I really need to start double checking my info because it's clear my memory is fading faster than Bill Cosbys popularity

Just out of casual interest, it looks like the Baptism by Fire series is definitely a Fanatic/Ra team-up, at least partly against the Ennead. Issues show up in Fanatic's deck, Ra's, and The Ennead's. The only art that shows anyone else is Ra's Imbued Fire (Legacy) and Fanatic's Divine Sacrifice (Blade Battalion), which are issues 5 & 6, respectively. It is possible that the presence of Legacy (as Baron Blade's nemesis) on Imbued Fire and Blade Battalion on Divine Sacrifice is indicative of Legacy (or Freedom Five) joining the team-up for a fight against Baron Blade in those last two issues.

With the art from (?) 5 & 6, combined with the cover of BbF #4, it looks like #4 might be the dramatic conclusion of the Ennead story arc in BbF?

Back to cataloging art & issue numbers,

BLM

You may find the spoiler spreadsheet to be useful in that vein. I received my copy of Villains from my FLGS yesterday. This weekend is nuts with pre-midterm grading, but I'll get those cards transcribed slowly over the next several months.

You probably have already seen these, but these threads are very useful, especially the posts from Christopher and Adam.

Sentinel Comics

Mapping the Sentinels Comics History

Comic Numbering