Who's still on pre-order?

Heh, I only just saw this forum had been added. :)  Who else is still on Prime War from the Broken City/For Profit pre-order?

*Raises hand* :-D 

And -- after playing it at Gen Con -- looking forward to the gameplay, even if I think the characters are darker than I prefer. :-\ 

I'm still 100% in!

Still have mine.  

Yup!

I'm still all in, and can't wait to see what comes out of it!

=]

Still in, just wish I had a better grasp of what it will look like compared to s3ntinel tactics when it is all done

I am still in. I will say that the CoOp mode plays pretty well from PAX Unplugged last year. This had me a lot more excited as the Sentinels Tactics team combat gameplay was very hit or miss with my group... then again it has been so many years, most of that group has completely changed...

*rises from the dead, and brings the thread with me*

I'm still in. Been loving the Demos at Gencon so I'm super excited to actually get my hands on it.

Still in. 

Still in. It's been almost five years since I preordered Broken City & For Profit. During this time, tax and customs for shipping to my home country raised incredibly. I don't know if there will be a compensation of some sorts; I don't want to pay a high price for shipping after waiting for this long.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

I'm still in. Has it been almost 5 years already? Wow, the time has flown by.

Still here too. Waiting and hopeful.

I am, but my pre-order address still shows as my old address even though I submitted a request to have it changed 2 years ago...

They’ve significantly improved their ability to keep up with customer service needs in that time. You might want to try sending an email to contact@greaterthangames.com and see if they can get that fixed for you.

I'm pretty sure they'll be getting updated addresses for everyone, as our pre-orders are in kindergarten by now =)

I emailed just incase and was told by Katie it was updated.   I was pleasantly surprised how quickly she replied to my request and my follow up question.  

LOL!!!

Yeah, Katie is awesome. And having additional folks to cover different needs has made a huge difference.

Have we heard of any updates on this... I feel it has been 5 years since we pre-ordered, 2 years since the announcement of the changes, and now 1 year since LoreForge's website posted an update... I am also not sure it was at PAX this year meaning that it has been MIA for about 1 year. The radio silence on this game has truly been staggering.

Lore Forge Games posted an update four months ago, link below But yeah, info has been real thin. And updates only seem to come when we ask for it.

I expect GTG has been focused on the long overdue Legends Of Sleepy Hollow since they had to take over development from Dice Hate Me. Pure speculation on my part but I’d wager most GTG playtesting has focused on that so there likely hasn’t been much feedback to LFG about Prime War. And then there’s Sentinels RPG to get out although chapters are being shared to backers for that so it’s moving along. Also Christopher Badell has to do dialogue branches for the computer game Sentinels Of Freedom that they’re doing with Underbite Games. Then there’s all the other works in progress. So don’t hold your breath I guess?

Ah, thanks. I think I missed that update. At least it sounds like things are still progressing.

I am aware of all the other work, I guess I just thought we would be seeing more updates as Lore Forge would be able to focus on the game. I guess I am just disappointed with how long this has dragged on for this project and how it was handled. I know other projects are ongoing, but for a game they collected pre-orders for 5 years ago. Still looking forward to the game.

Updates only seem to come after we push for them. The latest update only came after I posted a query on their Aug 25 entry, followed up on their FB post a month later due to no response on the blog, and then DMed LFG on FB when there was no response to the FB post query. Similarly previous blog posts only show up when either LFG or GTG are asked about the status.

As far as I can tell the LFG guys have other full time work they do and game development is a spare time thing. They addressed the interaction process between them and GTG in their latest blog post. So if most playtest resources at GTG have been involved in Legends Of Sleepy Hollow then LFG likely hasn't had a lot of feedback to do additional work with. This is only speculation and conjecture on my part. 

As I know LoSH has been a major retooling for GTG (I've been following its progress in the KS Posts even though I'm not a backer) I expect that's why Paul Bender hasn't posted a State of GTG in months, all focus being on completing that project. I wish Prime War would get a fraction of that attention, but it seems evident that regardless of how committed they are to eventually putting it out it is low priority for them.

GTG has a pretty limited set of resources available and a lot they've taken on. Getting nailed by the situation with LoSH definitely hurt everything in the pipeline, and the RPG is taking a lot more effort than they expected. (It's books, not cards. It's so! Much! More!) :-(  But they are trying to take the right approach and create the best games they can, instead of rushing them out, so I'll give them credit for that. 

LFG are definitely juggling PW with their day jobs / real life, which I imagine is incredibly hard. Time passes a lot faster than we think it does when there are folks waiting / interested in what we're doing... :-\ I'm sure the holidays didn't help any, and losing that momentum can be really hard to recover from. 

I understand the limited resources. And I understand the delays, etc. I have been a fan of >G since their first KS. The handling of this project specifically, though has been pretty bad and there really is no excuse for that. They sold the preorders 5 years ago and gave little update whatsoever to the progress while villains was released and new KS projects were launched and fulfilled. We then learn that they plan to rework the entire game, content, characters, etc. via a flurry of posts and texts from fans at GenCon instead of any official word to the people that preordered the games. Now we get drips of info only when we start to demand some insight into what is happening while we look at the Stat of >G posts as this item sits at the bottom of the list of priorities for years...

As I said, I am a fan and want to support them. I just feel that this was never a priority for them and as such they can barely care enough to talk to the backers. Highlighting what is happening with LoSH only further makes me feel this way as you can see all the effort they are putting into both completing the game and the transparency to where they are at. Since this was not a KS project, there is no visibility for it outside of whoever preordered years ago and their only place to publicly ask questions is this forum.

I would be happy with updates every other month just to show that they remember this project exists. The last LFG post contained the first picture/assets we have ever seen for the game after 5+ years. There just comes a point where you start to wonder if >G will ever care enough to pull this one together or constantly re-prioritize new content.

That's all fair, in my opinion. (And I appreciate the thoughtful response. :-) 

 I understand a small company's limited resources, and seeing the grind they've had on LoSH I've held off on asking LFG or GTG for any status update since the last one. But everything that's on GTG's plate now was announced after the original pre-order was completed March 2015. The only thing that comes close in age is Sentinels RPG, also announced in March 2015, and that didn't go to KS until January 2019. 

Two years ago I wrote an open letter to Paul Bender requesting greater transparency. A copy of it isin the archived forum Sentinel Tactics. I was prompted to write that letter because everything regarding Seninels Of Freedom (developed with Underbite Games) announced at that time seemed to describe what we were expecting from the Sentinel Tactics. That letter listed many of the GTG products announced, developed, and often delivered since the Tactics expansion pre-order was completed. The list is only longer today. It includes Sentinels Of Freedom which is now in final stages according to those KS updates.

Six months later Paul announced GTG had been working with Lore Forge Games for a year with a complete change to the game so that it was no longer compatible with the old game. LFG is an untested game developer whose main claim to ability was performing well in Sentinel Tactics tourneys. I don't think that has changed since. Paul also said when asked about the status of future updates that during the fall after Gen Con 2018 the updates should be monthly just like a Kickstarter. When that didn't occur and I followed up on it he pushed the update responsibility to LFG who has updated sporadically and usually only when prompted. 

The original promise of an unspecified something extra for those who stuck around has been watered down to an upgrade kit to the new game. The changes announced in July 2018 do interest me, especially the co-op portion, and that's why I have stuck with it so far instead of bailing at that time. The focus exhibited on developing Legends of Sleepy Hollow, as well as their transparency in development difficulties and also mostly sticking to a promised biweekly KS update cycle, shows GTG is capable of focused development and reliable communication. So when it comes to Sentinel Tactics/Prime War it tells me they repeatedly have chosen to not focus development or be communicative regarding this product's development. 

They've always been fair in offering full refunds, no doubt. After LoSH is done and off to the manufacturer how they update us on the expected process forward will determine whether I take them up on it.

I will agree on some of the stuff posted here.

1) Still a little salty we found out about prime war from random people who happened to be at Gen Con and not an official announcement. Bad PR move.

2) Will also echo the disappointed we havent been getting monthly updates like Paul promised, even if it was as simple as hey not much has changed.

3) The info about Lore Forge Games and the only name to claim is doing well at sentienal tactic tournaments has me worried at the moment.

4) I wish we had more details about exactly what happen to Legends of Sleepy Hollow because it sounds like that was a mess overall and if it is Dice Hate Me Games fault, what does that mean moving forward because stuff like this affects everything else people are excited for.

FWIW Paul hasn't even logged into the forum since over three months ago.

morph147, regarding your point 1, I'm not sure what you mean by no official announcement. The original announcement regarding a Prime War revamp was by Christopher on August 10, 2016, then Paul made the second revamp announcement (including Lore Forge Games) on July 5, 2018. Links below.

August 10, 2016
https://greaterthangames.com/content/announcing-prime-war

July 5, 2018
https://greaterthangames.com/content/prime-war
Question thread
https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/prime-war-11576

They were referring to the fact that news of Prime Wars was released at Gen Con, more than a week before that announcement by Christopher that you mentioned. That was a definite misstep.

Ah, thanks. I usually think of Gen Con as slightly later in the year. Certainly a misstep, but to me one so long in the history of Prime Wars that only a bobble compared to what has (or hasn’t) come after.

This actually makes me nervous for other reasons. However they keep hiring people for different roles so maybe they have someone who’s job is in charge of the forums and to keep us updated? Idk.

I figured most of his focus was on the crunch time with Legends of Sleepy Hollow. 

I guess the other aspect that has me concerned for this project is that we have no idea what the commercial success was. For a KS we can usually see money raised and # of backers which tends to correlate to how big of an investment a company should make into a product. The numbers of people buying into this game is very questionable to me. Initial numbers are somewhat obscured as they were run alongside Vengeance preorders and that was then followed by 5+ years of people requesting refunds... For all we know, this is the extent of the people still in on the product which makes me feel like there is no financial reason for them to support a speedy and dedicated development. At this point, I am expecting this to relaunch on KS as there is probably no money left to develop this project, yet alone enough backers to justify them printing it...

Per yesterday's Legends of Sleepy Hollow KS update the schedule has been pushed back a month as the editing was only completed last weekend and been handed over to the graphics department. So the files are delayed going to the printer until the end of March instead of the end of February. Also with the coronavirus all factory work is up in the air so I assume Paul is juggling a lot of scheduling of projects that were supposed to go into production soon.

Hey folks!

I see that everyone has a lot of questions about Prime War, and in general what we have been up to the last several months. I'm sorry that we left you in the dark, and we will work harder to be more transparent with our fans going forward, but for now, let me update you on a few things. 

The Past 3 months
Over the past 3 months, we have been working on creating a better internal organization for the sake of our fans, our products, and everyone at Greater Than Games. Jenn became the COO and has started, or continued depending on the project, large scale project management. She is now tracking all the products that come to us from China and the state of projects that are at the factory. She is our point person for updating us on the Coronavirus situation, and we are still waiting for information from our manufacturing partners. She has also been working with Matt and Jodie to optimize our warehouse so we can turn products around faster, and get them back out the door to all of you lovely folks.  In addition to all of that, Jenn is still our Creative Director, so she has spent a lot of time working with Rae and Sarah, our two amazing graphic designers, on Spirit Island: Jagged Earth, Sentinel Comics: The Roleplaying Game Core rulebook, my silly marketing assets, etc. 

Christopher, well you kind of know what Christopher has been doing. He's been working on the RPG, Legends of Sleepy Hollow, Sentinels of Freedom, and more secret projects that we can't talk about yet :P He was able to finish edits for Legends of Sleepy Hollow on Sunday night and will still need to review the final graphic design layout, but is mostly done with that project. Christopher and the graphic design team have been working in tandem on the RPG to ensure the layout can fix the text, and the images are in the right place. He recently updated the Kickstarter page and let everyone know that we are estimating fulfillment in July. He and Braithwhite (Chris Burton) have been working on the Sentinels of Freedom video game together, and they actually completed a big chunk of work on Monday for it. 

Paul and I have been spending a lot of time working together on sales. I became the Director of Sales at the tail end of last year and we started revamping our sales process so we can be better business partners. This including spinning Katie Nale, our Customer Service and Demo Team Manager, and Twuana Price, our Operations Manager, up on sales procedures so that they can assist with the processing of orders, B2B customer service, and a series of other awesome things. Paul has also been working on upcoming projects that we can't discuss yet, working with me to improve GTG Operations, and, ya know, just running the business. 

Prime War
We are going to have a bigger announcement about the state of Prime War in the next month or two, but we need to get through a few projects first. 

Going Forward
Paul and I just had a conversation about me providing monthly updates on what's going on at Greater Than Games and hosting a Q&A type session in the comments after, does that sound useful to you?

I love writing, and talking so I don't really have to be convinced, but I want to solve the communication we've been having with ya'll and I want your input, so please let me know.  

When Paul updated Prime War in July 2018 with the revamp info and the involvement of Lore Forge Games he said there would be monthly updates starting the fall after Gen Con that year. That would be a start, with some kind of indication of real progress. Almost anything would be an improvement. Characters, lore, playtest videos, art, sculpts, rules info, these are all things that could be shared with a proviso everthing is subject to change.  But this would at least let us know that something is being developed beyond reiterating cycles of playtest turnaround. Y'all are in Missouri so you should be familiar with the expression 'show me'. 

I thought the regular monthly State of GTG post in General Discussion was a good practice, which also allowed people to ask questions regarding their individual game interests. 

Really, just read my open letter from two years ago. The only things that have changed are the number of projects started, in production, and delivered, and the revelation that game development had been delegated to Lore Forge Games for six months already when I wrote that.

https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/an-open-letter-regarding-sentinel-tactics-wave-2-transparency-11179

Monthly updates are a good idea, no matter who's doing them. :)

Thank you for linking me to the letter. I will keep it in mind going forward while we communicate about Prime War, or any other upcoming project. 

This is really all I wanted for an update. Confirmation that some form of movement was happening on the game and we would know something soon. Monthly updates just saying hey we did this to get this out the door is Great for me.

Thanks, Maggie! Greatly appreciate the update and the offer for more. :-D 

I would like to check… Is this meant to say a bigger announcement is forthcoming in an actual month or two, or is it more of an indeterminate ‘soon’?

I read it as saying they expect to be able to make an announcement within the next month or two.   

But there was the clause that they had to get through a project or two first. So if the timing is dependent on other projects that makes it more indeterminate to me.

We can go in circles on this about how you want to read that statement on when they will make an announcement.  All we can do is try to hold them to the fact that they have promised one in the near future.  

That's why I asked to clarify, so come the end of April we don't run into confusion and disappointment if things turn out differently than hoped for.

I'm just telling you that to me I don't think it needs clarity. If the major announcement about Prime War doesn't happen by end of April we should be pressing for more information. 

Thanks, Maggie! Greatly appreciate some news and movement on the project. Hopefully the announcement brings more good news.

For whatever it's worth, I too am still on the original Broken City/For Profit pre-order.  I got burned out on Sentinels during the OblivAeon playtest, to the point where I rarely play anything Sentinels-related anymore... so, at this stage, it might be better if I just asked for a refund of this pre-order.  However, a part of me hopes that whenever this project finally gets completed (in whatever form that takes) it might reignite my enthusiasm for Sentinels.  For now I'll stay on the bandwagon of "hmm, I'll wait for one more update..."  I've been there so long, it's pretty comfy by now. 

Yeah. I can understand burning out on it. I kind of hit the same point with my group as there is no new content to explore either. Most of us have shifted to Marvel Champions. Similar feel in a lot of ways but we get to have some fun tweaking decks.

I will say that Prime War does use a fun and unique system that does feel a lot different. The game feels more like Spirit Island where area control, movement and action speeds all come into lay. I am not sure how I feel about the story/lore yet as it seems like a contrived reason to mash a bunch of characters together, but overall it should be a fun revisit to the SotM world.

FYI Legends of Sleepy Hollow amd Sentinel Comics RPG updates today. LOSH update indicates delays as the graphic designer is currently undergoing testing for CPVID-19 after a family member contracted it and so is unable to work. At this time he is unable to work and game is on hold other than reviewing white samples from factory. The factory for Sentinel Comics RPG is closed currently so they are taking this time to work on text and art for that product. 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dicehateme/legends-of-sleepy-hollow/posts/2805775
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinel-comics-the-roleplaying-game/posts/2805370

Count me amongst those who still have their pre-order. With all the time off I might swing by the ol' playtest forum, see if I can't be useful somewhere.

I'm still waiting, hoping that whatever is going on behind the scenes ends up making an excellent game. But man it's been quite a long time though. I played what felt like a really polished demo 3 years ago. Gotta think that it's closer to something than not at this point.

Well it’s the end of April so I guess it’s time to press for more info. Especially since tomorrow is first Tuesday of the month and that’s when they give updates on other projects on kickstarter that they are behind on.

I realize covid 19 has disrupted things but can someone from GtG provide an update as promised?   The guys of LFG haven't posted any updates on their site since October either. 

The demos they'd been running at cons were getting better and better! :-D 

Hopefully we'll get some news, soon. 

Maggie did promise news around this timeframe and I'd like to see information sooner than later.   It's now been six months since any public news.   I hope I'm not sounding hostile but it's certainly getting frustrating to only get news from second hand sources at cons for the most part.    

The two month timeframe statement also referenced getting some other things done, which I presume mainly includes Legends of Sleepy Hollow and Sentinel Comics RPG. LoSH did have an issue with an artist getting COVID-19 (since recovered and back at work) and the RPG has an issue with the US factory being closed. But today is likely to be KS update day for both of them and will hopefully indicate development completion of those projects.

A brief update on Prime War within the indicated timeframe would have been nice, even if it was a 'delayed by pandemic' message. But I'm not surprised it hasn't happened because the forgotten back burner is the norm for this project.

Not sounding hostile, Powerhound; your concerns are understandable. :-) 

And honestly thanks for being civil and thoughtful in raising and discussing your concerns, folks. It's greatly appreciated! 

FYI, Legends of Sleepy Hollow, Spirit Island Jagged Earth, and the Sentinels RPG got updates so far today. Still waiting to see the update on Prime War.

Legends of Sleepy Hollow still not to printer, updated timeline expected May 19th. "In our last update, we said that files were on track to be turned over to the factory by May 1st, but as we communicated internally last week about final drafts and taking inventory of all of the outstanding items, it became clear that the deadline would not be possible."
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dicehateme/legends-of-sleepy-hollow/posts/2828802

Sentinels Comic RPG still not complete to distribute PDF version that was expected today, now possibly by next Tuesday. "While Sarah and I were going over final notes on every little bit of text and art in the SCRPG Core Rulebook last week, we noticed some irregularities in overlapping lines in charts. Super minor stuff that we know we'd be kicking ourselves if we let it go to print with those lines." 
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/gtgames/sentinel-comics-the-roleplaying-game/posts/2828787

Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time

*comes out of the shadows*

Still here and still have a pre-order.  This keeps slipping off my radar, thank you gang for keeping this topic active for hen I come back... :)

Not even having something come out of the LFG for a while is concerning, tack on everything else that is going on both internally and externally over at >G.

I think that the internal priority for this title has been displayed fairly clearly since inception. The goal posts for basic of information have been ever moving for years, and with every missed deadline comes the promise of another one Soon(tm). And make no mistake, that is no fault of Maggie, that is just the kind of foot dragging that has become acceptable surrounding this game. Maybe internally everyone there is really hyped on this game. But all evidence points to new and exciting projects that are yet to be announed on the horizon.

Honestly, its not surprising. With how poorly Tactics did, and with the market now saturated with not only solid games in the genre, but some clear world beaters like the Gloomhaven franchise, how excited is Paul to throw in the resources needed to bring this project to the market as it currently stands vs a prospect on the horizon that could net the company their next Spirit Island level of success? Paul is a super smart guy. I think they see the same thing I do.

I havn't asked for a refund because I love the guys at >G and I really believe that this game could be really great. But I secretly wish that someone would just come out and say that this title is probably never going to happen so that we can all move on and use the refund to solidify a copy of Frosthaven when it prints.

Sentinels Comics RPG KS has a backers only update today titled 'The SCRPG Core Rulebook Early Release PDF!' so hopefully that's one down. Waiting on next week's LoSH update to see where they are on that timeline.

Maggie did post a reply to someone yesterday in the most recent LoSH update revealing some of the current work processes for both LoSH and GTG. 

"For Legends of Sleepy Hollow specifically, we have started having weekly meetings where we discuss what the statuses of all the graphic design elements are, set deadlines, and talk about challenges/issues we are facing. We have a continuous chat going between the lead graphic designer, and the development team so we ensure that the graphic design team has a good understanding of what they are creating. 

"For Greater Than Games in general, we have started tracking projects more thoroughly through various Trello boards, and more frequent meetings so deadlines aren't forgotten/missed. Moving to remote work has proved to be more challenging than we initially anticipated, and so far we have found meetings to be very useful as a way to check on projects and team members."

FYI: Greater than Games is going to host a Youtube Live on Friday  at 3 pm CT and according to their facebook post " Ask us questions about gameplay, or about Greater Than Games in general" So I think this would be a great time to go in and start asking questions. If I am free I plan to.

Where did you see that?   I don't see it mentioned on Facebook or twitter.  I'll certainly try to attend and ask about Prime War.  

It's not on the GTG page but it's on the Sentinels page - a post about the Spirit Island stream on Friday.

https://www.facebook.com/sentinelsOTM/photos/a.161931660549709/3003108639765316

Weird normally I'd expect those posts to be on the GtG page and then posted to the other pages. Thanks MigrantP. 

I'll try to attend but long a/v medium is difficult for me. I won't hold my breath. As Christopher once described people trying to get Prime Wars info in Q&As as trolls if he's involved I won't expect much.

Also I have zed interest in Spirit Island.

I asked Maggie directly in the stream. She stated there should be one out later this month and they are working on an update. so we shall see

Thanks for asking and letting us know.. 

Here's a transcript of the exchange on yesterday's stream https://youtu.be/PYZuYs-nA64

**********

morph147 (via test 5:19) Hi, Maggie, I was wondering if there was any updates on Prime War. Back in Feb, you stated there would be an update in a month or 2 and its been 3 months. Curious if anything has changed

Maggie (verbally 5:50) Uh, someone just threw in chat, they asked about, they're asking about Prime War. Uh, we're actually currently working on an update, talkign about Prime War. So you'll hear more about it later this month. Um, so yeah, just stay tuned sometime later this month hopefully. I mean it'll definitely be within this month, you'll hear about it.

{missing in text replay but I did see it live - morph147 asked about passing this info on to the forum}

Greater Than Games (text 7:31) #morph147 yes, please feel free to let them know that we will have on update later this month :) And thank you for your question

**********

So hopefully no definitely within this month, but not stated if that's within the month of May or by June 15th a month from her statement. We'll see.

Thanks for sharing, fenianb! :-D 

I'm tempted to start a This Day In Prime War History thread. One year ago today Paul Bender said "Lore Forge was in town this week and we made a ton of progress on the rules and playtesting! At this point, you'll see a very close to final version of the Prime War rules at Gen Con with very preliminary art and graphic design. We are currently planning on having the game ready to send to the printer in Q1 2020." https://greaterthangames.com/comment/201987#comment-201987 So maybe the coming announcement will thrill us all. :)

1. If you start a This day in prime war history thread it would be filled with a lot of empty void.

2. Rereading Pauls post reminded me we are in a pandemic and George R.R. Martin better have nothing else to do except write winds of winter. He probably isnt though.

1. We could include the dates for KS launches and shipments for stuff announced after Broken City/For Profit and completed since. Y’know, for perspective.

2. As of March 18 Martin says he’s feeling fine, staying safe, and writing in Westeros every day. So there’s hope for ASOIAF fans yet.

Rabbit. You're wonderful.

I'mma inject a bit of positive vibes right here and I'll be back around for that update.

Unless someone is working this weekend I guess within the month of May is out.

This is the final answer:

https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/the-end-of-the-war-23391

I wish I could say I was surprised but as time passed since Maggie swang by to say an announcement was coming I started expecting at best further delays. It doesn't take months to say 'we're going to press!' At least the band-aid is finally ripped off what I think should probably have been shut down long ago.

On the one hand, they had our money for five years, and we are getting no product.  On the other hand, they are giving full refunds, and it's clear that they put plenty of work into a project for which, in the end, they are getting no revenue.  I'm sure, as unfortunate as this is for us loyal original pre-orderers, it's a much sadder day for GtG.  Probably for the best, though, based on what they are saying.